How to refute Cessationism using only the Bible

Given this passage:

1 Corinthians 13:8,10 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (KJV)

a pastor told me that "that which is perfect" in Greek refers to a thing, not just thing but a tangible thing, so he said it is the Bible.

Anyone here who knows that same word in original language is used in the Bible yet it did not refer to a "tangible thing" as I was told?

He also said this about knowledge and prophecies, because the Bible is already perfect. Honestly, I don't agree with him, but he does not condescend to experience, so even others have experience it, for him it must not have been from God.

We plan to talk tomorrow, I hope I can give a good answer.

The bible, while inspired by God and useful in instruction, is not our God. It cannot save us. The bible is to point out and upward from its pages towards Christ who does not dwell in a book but is the very source of all creation, everything around us that we touch and handle was made by him and through him. Sounds to me like he has a very small view of God. The bible is useful but it is not God, God is. Look around and behold his creation.

Joliboy, again, I humbly counsel you to reconsider the meeting with this IFB pastor. I do believe it will not bear the fruit that you hope for. I know you say you are not pinning a lot of hope on it and just want to have the conversation, but you DO, brother, think there is some way you can persuade him that cessationism is not biblical.

If you ARE going to meet with him anyway, I think it stems more from your own need to figure this issue out for yourself. In fact, I think you are doing a lot of thinking and meditating on it and you want an answer that is final, clear and indisputable. No matter what you say, or how clearly you study and understand, no matter how deeply and how thoroughly your understanding may become --- you will never be able to convince a cessationist to see it as you do. I say this not to discourage you, but to encourage you so that when you've gone into a conversation like the one you're planning, you walk away with perspective and hope. Jesus said, "let the dead bury their dead". I won't be as severe as that, but I would say that when you're through with such a conversation, to be content to let the ceased stay ceased.

Now, having said that -- for your own understanding -- I offer this:

"Perfect" in the Greek is not at thing and not a tangible thing. "Perfect" also does not mean the canon of scripture.

I want to give you a very brief summary of some history on how that understanding developed. I will cite sources. This is not just me talking off the cuff.

Let me lead with this statement from a Greek language scholar.

"An interpretation that has enjoyed support over the years is that 'the perfect' refers to the New Testament canon and that miraculous gifts ceased with the closing of the canon at the end of the first century. However, this interpretation has come under fire by representatives from both sides of the cessation issue. As one advocate for future cessation has declared, 'Evidence from the context that ‘the perfect’ refers to the second coming, together with the impossibility that Paul could have expected the Corinthian Christians to think he meant the canon, has left few evangelical scholars who continue to use this text to support a [present] cessation of the gifts.'"

"1 Corinthians 3:8-13 And The Cessation Of Miraculous Gifts", R. Bruce Compton, DBSJ 9 (2004):97-144 (at page 98).
Note: Compton concludes that "perfect" DOES mean the close of canon, but he at least admits others disagree. You need to know that so you can at least take comfort that even the highly paid biblical scholars who make a lot of headway in their profession by dissecting this passage and hating continuationism STILL disagree over what this passage actually means on this question. They can't come to the truth of it because they can't put aside their biases one way or the other.

Now, a guy named Rodney Decker did a paper in seminary years ago on this precise question. It was his master's thesis, I believe. (Decker finishes his thesis still a cessationist, but he concluded that "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13 is not the canon. He's right on that.)

Anyway, here's a link to that paper.

http://ntresources.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/perfectpaper94.pdf

Understand this: If "perfect" is not a thing (and, it isn't a thing --- the word teleion is an adjective and not a noun; there's no basis for his view that it is a tangible thing) -- and if it is a reference to what happens when Jesus returns, then all of those gifts must necessarily continue until Jesus returns. That is the "when" those things will cease/go away/fail, etc.

Some people insist on cessationism even IF "perfect" does not mean the close of the canon of Scripture. OK, they can do that if they choose. But, this textual argument CANNOT reasonably support their view. And, if they hold to it anyway, then it IS unreasonable. But, love doesn't have to win the argument. I'm fast arriving at a point where if people who profess Jesus are going to make it through, we are all about to find out the hard way just who He is beyond our professions and -isms. I just don't know how important it is to convince professing Christians anymore of anything.

joliboy: I have found that when a person has a strong desire for truth and a heart that longs to learn, a teachable person, that a doctrinal discussion can be very fruitful. But I have also found that when a person is only interested in defending their own point of view, the discussion is really a debate and is, in most cases, totally unprofitable. Be sure you know for sure that God wants you to have this conversation.

Hello Joliboy,

I am in agreement with brothers Tim and Travison this as well. Here are some scriptures that come to mind.

1 Corinthians 2:1-6 KJV (1) And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. (2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. (3) And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. (4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, BUT in DEMONSTRATION of the Spirit and of POWER: (5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

If you will ponder this portion for a minute, Paul is saying that it was not through convincing arguments of man's wisdom but though demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit that we convince men of ALL truth.

The demonstration is through the outward working of miracles and signs and also inwardly, through changing men (regeneration)from the broad road of destruction to the narrow road of eternal life. It is through the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit operating in faithful men, that those who are lost will take notice.

Trying to convince a Pastor who already has a preconceived notion of what, who, and why all believers are commanded to receive the Holy Spirit is a losing battle. I am not saying it is impossible if we employ the demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit.

Cessationists have an anti Christ spirit and goes beyond their own fleshly prideful wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. You will strive in vain trying to convince a man who has this mindset and is not a battle of flesh and blood but of principalities, powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness.

Look at what Paul says further on in this chapter.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Cessationists are natural men and trying to convince them of the Holy Spirits role in believers lives to this very day is foolishness to them.

If brother Tim is correct in this POSSIBLY being more for you than the Pastor, I would be all in for giving you the clear plain teaching of scripture of the Holy Spirit and His continued role in the body of Christ.

Oh that men would heed Jesus' words and see that the fields are white and ready for harvest and not busy themselves debating sinful fleshly men with a willful bent to not see, hear, and believe the clear teaching of Gods word (as long as faithful men are doing their part as outlined by Paul).

Matthew 10:11-15 KJV And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire (pray) who in it is worthy (willing); and there abide till ye go thence. (12) And when ye come into an house, salute it (bless). (13) And if the house be worthy (willing), let your peace (Gods Peace) come upon it: but if it be not worthy (unwilling), let your peace return to you. (14) And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words (Gods word through demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit), when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. (15) Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

(Emphasis mine)

I trust and pray that you realize this is not meant to discourage you in any way. Pray and seek the Lord and if you enquire and find that the Pastor is worthy then go to him if your spirit and conscience would so lead you.

A final judgement, Cessationists are not without hope for with God, all things are possible.

I have found that when a person has a strong desire for truth and a heart that longs to learn, a teachable person, that a doctrinal discussion can be very fruitful. But I have also found that when a person is only interested in defending their own point of view, the discussion is really a debate and is, in most cases, totally unprofitable. Be sure you know for sure that God wants you to have this conversation.

That's some good advice right there, wish I had heeded it more often myself. Good motives are not enough, a word in season is needed.

In Christ,

I agree with what others have said. Sometimes, a "healthy debate" can be an awful waste of time -- when individuals are so secure with what they are convinced with. The idea of "reasoning together" isn't the problem. The problem is that one side feels no need to "reason" because they are absolutely sure that their position is absolutely right.

As for the initial point of discussion, here are a few thoughts:

1.) I've noticed that individuals are so quick to say that tongues have "ceased" but say little to nothing about whether knowledge has "vanished." The Scriptures tell us that knowledge will encompass the Earth (Habakkuk 2:14). Moreover, the two witnesses in Revelation 11 will prophesy -- and that is before Christ returns.

2.) The Bible existed long before any ecclesiastical councils met and determined which books were canon and which were not. So, if that is the "perfect" that they are referring to, then it already existed before it was penned -- because "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

3.) If "that which is perfect" refers to the canonized Scriptures (or the KJV), then where are those "missing" books that are also mentioned elsewhere in the Scriptures (e.g., Book of Enoch [Jude 4,6,13,14”“15, 2 Peter 2:4;3:13], Book of Jasher [2 Timothy 3:8, 2 Samuel 1:18, Joshua 10:13], etc.)?

thanks, i will took heart on what you all have said.

I think he is referring to "that which is" as the tangible thing, not the word "perfect".

But don't you know anyone who was a former cessationist, that change his belief, then how and why?

I can sense the life on Christ when I am with the pastor, however his strong stand on things that I disagree, makes me to stop pursuing the church as I have also posted on other posts.

I am also expecting that this will be our last meeting. I will also share how I become a Christian. I still don't know if he considers me as a brother in Christ or just a nominal Christian.

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Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

well here Paul only uses the Old Testament (not his own inspired Epistles) when proving God's message with them. That is what just I mean when "only using the Bible".

1 Corinthians 9: 20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

quote:
"But don't you know anyone who was a former cessationist, that change his belief, then how and why?"

At one time I was a cessationist, although I didn't know that is what it was called. The churches I grew up in never discussed the gifts of the Spirit. I thought people who spoke in tongues, for example, were weirdos (Edit: still think some are :)

Not until I actually experienced the HS in action, with my wife present, did I come to realize how wrong I was.

Prior to that, no amount of arguing in the world could have convinced me otherwise.

For years while we were in the seeker church mindset in a seeker church, where I was an elder, I had arrived there theologically in shock. During that time, I decided that because of the fraud and abuse I had seen, that my logical and biblical study that supported my continuationist beliefs must be wrong. So I disavowed continuation publicly and it was a requirement to be an elder in our church.

But, all the while, when in personal prayer, I would start praying in tongues. I just said to God, "I know I am wrong. I know this is just me. I know what I read and learned is not correct. Be merciful. I don't know what to do with this. ". I would walk away and keep right on as a happily deluded cessationist and seeker friendly church growth guy. Until I wasn't. Until I had to face all of it and decide. And I just could not deny the Bible any longer.