Dreams and Visions of Jesus Among Muslims???

Hebrews 2:1-4

For this reason, we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard. , So that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable. And every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty; how will we escape? If we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testifying with them, come both by science and wanders. By various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit abounding in his own will.

To the best of my knowledge, I don't think this topic has ever been addressed in the forum? That is dreams and visions that are bringing Muslims to Christ. I have read both books by Tom Doyle, Dreams and Visions and Killing Christians. In his books, Tom Doyle documents the occurrence of dreams and visions among Muslims that are bringing them to Christ. I might add Tom Doyle has worked and is still working as a missionary in the Middle East.

In praying for the persecuted church, I have seen youtube videos and read other accounts where Muslims have come out of darkness into the light of Christ by dream or a vision. Sometimes it will take many dreams and vision for a Muslim to work through. But to those Muslims who ultimately commit their life to Christ. They will be believers even as unto death. I have never heard of a Muslim who came to Christ through a dream or a vision. And later rejected Christ. Many times they understand that to commut to the Lord Jesus Christ will be a sentence of death.

So are the experiences of God speaking to Muslims in dreams and visions true. Are these valid ways in which God is speaking outside of His word?

Bro Blaine

---OP has been reedited to hopefully avoid less controversy in thread---

Dr. John MacArthur is considered one of the foremost expositors of word of God in America. And perhaps around the world. Dr. McArthur is also the biggest proponent of cessationism. Below is an answer to a question that he was asked about dreams and visions among Muslims in the Middle East.

I copied and pasted the question and his answer below so that I will not be accused of taking it out of context. I did post breaks between the interviewer's questions and John McArthur's answer. For easier flow. Also, the entire interview can be seen under the heading. John McArthur Answers His Critics.
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Interviewer's question

We often hear today that many believers from a Muslim background””especially those from closed countries who do not have easy access to God’s Word””are claiming they had a vision of Christ and that in this vision he directed them to a place or person where they could hear the gospel. This proclamation of the gospel led to their conversion. Do you believe these stories? Do you consider such visions a valid means that God may work in our world today?

J NacArthur answers...

There are several points that could be made in answer to this question. Let me begin with just a general comment about how to interpret experience. It is important to remember that, as Christians, we ought to develop our theology from Scripture and then interpret experience accordingly. Danger comes when believers get that backwards””allowing experience to define their theology, and then reinterpreting the Bible to make it fit.

With regard to these kinds of stories, I am always somewhat skeptical about third- and fourth-hand accounts of supposedly supernatural happenings. It’s not that I doubt the power of God to do whatever He wants. Obviously, He can (Psalm 115:3). But I question whether the story itself is an accurate record of what actually took place. Sometimes well-meaning people misinterpret what really happened. Sometimes second-hand stories are unintentionally exaggerated. And sometimes, sadly, people purposefully manufacture tall tales.

For example, there are unbelievers in false religions all over the world who claim to have received divine revelations or to have witnessed miracles. I don’t believe any of those things, because they are reported by people who do not truly know God.

Regarding the visions in question, it is important to recognize that those who have investigated such claims have found the evidence to be sorely lacking. For example, this article directly addresses the issue.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I am thrilled to hear that Muslims are coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is remarkable, and I rejoice in that reality! Moreover, I would gladly affirm that their regeneration truly is a miracle (just as it is for every sinner), even if I would deny the notion that any previous dreams, impressions, or experiences were revelatory or miraculous.

I suppose that brings us to the crux of the matter. Do I believe that people in the Muslim world are actually seeing Jesus Christ? No, I do not. Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:8 that he was "the last of all” to see the risen Christ. So, I believe that precludes anyone outside of those listed in 1 Corinthians 15 of being able to claim legitimate visions of the resurrected Savior. (The apostle John, of course, was one of those included in 1 Corinthians 15. Accordingly, I don’t believe the book of Revelation sets a precedent for believers to expect genuine visions of Jesus to occur throughout church history.)

Furthermore, it is important to note that these individuals are still unbelievers when they reportedly have these experiences. Consequently, these experiences (whatever they are reported to be) cannot constitute examples of the charismatic gifts having continued, since spiritual gifts are only given to believers (1 Cor. 12:7)””and these people do not come to saving faith until later.

Finally, the New Testament clearly states that the way in which the gospel is spread in this age is through preaching. As Paul explains in Romans 10:14”“15, unbelievers will not hear the gospel unless missionaries go to them proclaiming the good news of salvation:

How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”

To claim that the gospel is now being spread through supernatural visions and revelatory dreams (rather than gospel preaching) goes contrary to Paul’s words in those verses.

By the way, that is why we live-stream our church services every Sunday in Arabic (through gracechurch.org) so that those sermons are available to Arab-speakers all around the world. We believe that faith comes from hearing the proclamation of the good news. In our efforts to fulfill the Great Commission, we can’t assume that supposed visions are legitimate, when the means that God has ordained is the proclamation is the gospel.

Now, can God providentially work in such a way as to use people’s thoughts and impressions to draw them to faith in Jesus Christ? Yes, I believe that’s possible. As I noted earlier, God can do whatever He wants. But that work is neither revelatory nor miraculous. Phil Johnson gave a helpful explanation of this point in his breakout session at the Strange Fire Conference. He said this: ”‹

How do we understand that inner sense, especially when God seems to use it to prompt us to pray, or witness, or duck and run at precisely the right moment? Because let’s be honest: that kind of thing does happen to most of us from time to time.

Here’s the point: I do believe that God might providentially use a spontaneous thought in my head to accomplish something wonderful. But that’s what it is, and no more. It’s a remarkable providence, not a prophecy [nor a revelatory vision]. As I have been saying, God ultimately controls and uses everything providentially… . The fact that He uses an idea in my mind to achieve some good purpose doesn’t make the idea itself inspired.

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Forum for your thoughts on the article. I am sure that there are many who will agree with Dr. McArthur.

Bro Blaine

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My sister thank you for sharing your thoughts. And thank you for sharing the testimony about the sister from Hinduism and the young men from your church. I do believe that God is speaking through dreams and visions.

But I do believe there are some who say that God speaks only through the printed word. Wondering what they think of Muslims seeing Jesus in dreams and visions? Perhaps they would agree with Dr. McArthur.

Bro Blaine

--- reedited for less controversy ---

...It's already been made plain that you believe the dreams are real and from God but still you want to hear from those who it has already been intimated are wrong because they may believe God speaks only through the word...

David, I'm not saying those who hold that God speaks ONLY through the word are wrong. I believe very much that God does speak throug His word. As a matter of fact, this is the PRIMARY way in which God speaks.

In my own personal walk with Christ I am probably more in the word now than I have ever been in my 45 years in walking with Jesus. Ironically it was after I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and received of my prayer language of speaking in tongues. That I began to develop a hunger, more for the word of God.

But what I'm asking is? Does God speak through other means to bring people to the word? One of our brothers just posted about his testimony of a vision of Jesus. Our brother shared that he was about to leave the Christian faith when Jesus appeared to him. Our brother said he repented his sins. This is our brother Sree

Yet Dr.MacArthur would call our brother's experiences into question. Perhaps say that Sree should have gotten his conviction by reading the word.

But again, is God confined only to the printed word? Are dreams and visions credible ways in which God speaks?

Bro Blaine

---CAPD are for emphasis only---

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Very moved by your testimony, my brother. Thank you so much for sharing.

Bro Blaine

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Original OP has been reedited for less controversy. My apologies for any offense.

But I respectfully pose the question again. Does God speak only through his printed word? If this is the case. Then are many Muslims claiming experiences of Jesus being deceived? Those who claim to have come to Christ as a result of visions or dreams? Are they false believers?

Bro Blaine

Below is a link to a paper in which the author discounts the dreams and visions that Muslims are having of Jesus. The paper is too long to post here. Also, the paper is quite theological. But I include the link for purposes of discussion.

http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/2012/03/01/muslim-visions-jesus/

The author concludes below.

---My Conclusion: This study concludes that the biblical support offered for the Muslim dreams phenomenon, when evaluated within the context of Scripture, does not, in fact, support the phenomenon. Therefore, I conclude that these dreams and visions lack biblical authority and must therefore be viewed as extra-biblical experiences generated from sources other than the Holy Spirit.---

Bro Blaine

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Brother, you bring a different side of the story. I was under the the impression that Muslims who had dreams or visions of Jesus readily responded to Him. But I can see that I was mistaken.

I guess it is like the gospel. A person may hear the good news of Jesus Christ. And chose not to respond. While another may hear it and choose to respond. So to a Muslim may have a dream of Jesus and choose to act on that dream or vision. While another having a similar experience may disregarded it or choose not to act on it.

I do agree. We need to get the word out about what God is doing among the Muslims. It seems that there those who are responding to the dreams and visions of Jesus. Then those who are rejecting it. But the brother? This is an assumption on my part. I could very well be mistaken. But I do pray that more will respond to the dreams and visions that they may have about theMan in White.

Thank you for sharing.

Bro Blaine

---I define Gods Written Word as Spirit, Truth, Life and the very person of Jesus Christ. This definition is derived, of course, from the Written Word.---

Brother based on what you share. It seems that the Word is far more comprehensive than we could ever think or imagine.

Appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Thank you.

Bro Blaine

---Now what do we do? I personally believe that God is outside of time and even His Word which He will never contradict or as His Word is perfect so is He of what is outside of what is written, God is so much more, we will be learning throughout all eternity His Glory and Majesty. How can we put God in the little box we have as the true Word of God. God is so much more than we can know, but He says we will know.---

So agree my brother. This is very potent stuff. Its going to take a while for me to wrap my mind around your potent post. But it certainly resonates in my spirit. Mind blowing to say the least.😊

Thank you for sharing.

Bro Blaine

Arguably, Dr. David Hunt is probably one of the foremost apologists of our age. He has gone to be with the Lord now. But his book, the seduction of Christianity and beyond seduction. Have educated us to the error of the new age movement. In the article below Dr. hunt questions, the validity of dreams that Muslims are having of Jesus.

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JESUS APPEARS TO MUSLIMS

September 18, 2009
Audio Player

rELIGION IN THE NEWS

A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Open Doors News Brief Magazine, November 2000. "I wasn’t a Christian then, I was born into a Muslim family, and I didn’t know much about Christianity at all. I had seen churches from the outside, but never set foot in them. I knew about Eesa, that is, Jesus, from the Qur’an. We all do, but now I actually saw him! Whether it was in a kind of dream or vision I don’t know. I grabbed my chuddar, ran out of the door and started crying. He called to me, ‘I am Jesus, I am here, come to me.’ Then he took my hand and walked with me to the church down the road. We went into the courtyard; he pointed to the church building and said, ‘This is the place where I live, then he left.’” As Sarah was speaking, an intense joy spread over her face. She took her Bible and hugged it to her heart. After a while she continued quoting: "Jesus is so lovely, I never knew that, I’ve come to love him more and more. Since the day I saw him I have gone to church, I started to read the Bible, and my life is totally changed, the Lord is so real to me. My life hasn’t become any easier, I’ve been a widow for 5 years, and I’m only 38. I still have to take care of all of my children on my own, but I have found the source of joy. He is the light and love of my life, and I never want to go back to my old life style again.” All over the Muslim world God is doing remarkable things. Time and time again we are hearing stories like Sarah’s of Muslims who have been converted through dreams and visions; often they had little or no contact with Christians. Jesus appears directly to them and as a result they commit their lives to Him.

Tom:

Dave, one of the reasons I picked this for us to look at, on the one hand, you really want to get excited about it. This is from Open Doors from Brother Andrew from his magazine, but there have been others out there””

Dave:

November 2000.

Tom:

There have been others out there who have reported the same thing.

Dave:

Campus Crusade has reported similar things.
Tom:

Right. Now, someone sent me this article, and their concern was, Is this legit, is this what””they were concerned that maybe this wasn’t Jesus, maybe this was a little too, kind of experiential, a little too subjective, even to the point of wondering whether this is truly going on or if this is of the Lord, actually.

Dave:

Yeah, a number of things really troubled me as that was being read, Tom. Jesus does not live in a church, I don’t care what church. Paul said it very clearly on Mars Hill Acts 17: "He dwelleth not in temples made with hands.” He dwells in our hearts now, the Son of God has come to live in our hearts, and God has come to live in our hearts. So, God does not live in a church, number one. Number two, I don’t know what church this was, there seemed to be a physical presence here: "he took her by the hand,” I mean, it is almost too much, led her to this church, she said she met him personally. Now, there’s not a word in there about the gospel, and the Bible says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. She’s had an emotional experience with someone called Jesus, that she thought was Jesus””Eesa.

Tom:

Now this is an apparition.

Dave:

Yeah, yeah, right.

Tom:

And she saw his face, he is so lovely, she says.

Dave:

It’s not the Jesus that John the Revelator saw in Revelation 1; glorified at the Father’s right hand. I don’t think that you become a Christian; in fact I know you do not become a Christian through meeting an apparition that calls itself Jesus. Now, if she had said””she says she started reading her Bible, she has great joy.

Tom

That’s good.

Dave:

Yeah, but there are many people who read their Bible and don’t understand it and don’t believe it. So, I don’t find any basis for believing that this woman is a true Christian. She may be, maybe that isn’t told in the story, but I find no comprehension of who Jesus is. He’s a wonderful, lovely person, came to her and visited her, and so forth. Did he die on the cross for her sins? Is he God, really God himself? And then she said we’ve read of this Eesa in the Qur’an. Well, the Eesa in the Qur’an, the Jesus in the Qur’an is not the Jesus of scripture. The Jesus in the Qur’an for example, did not die on the cross, someone died in his place. In fact, the Qur’an says that God put a likeness of Jesus upon one of his disciples, and the tradition, the hadith says it was Judas who died in Jesus’ place. So now, she doesn’t seem to have been delivered from the Qur’an, and she’s had an emotional experience with some apparition that called itself Jesus. I’m troubled by that.

Tom:

Well, the number one problem here is that this is incredibly subjective. How would someone listening to, or reading this testimony, how would they relate to it? Would they say, oh Jesus is appearing all around, and He’s meeting people out there or over here or there. Does this then establish a doctrine of how Jesus moves and how He worked among people? You would have real trouble, as you have been indicating, lining this up with scripture, so that’s a problem. On the other hand, could Jesus just sovereignly move into somebody’s life? I mean we’ve talked about people, we’ve written about people who met Jesus on a drug trip intervening in their lives, saving them from death and turning them around. That’s very subjective as well.

Dave:

That is, and they didn’t become believers, but something happened on this drug trip, whatever it was, that caused them to rethink their lives and they were then led to Christ through the gospel. But Paul writes of those who love His appearing, and John writes, 1 John 3, "When we see Him we will be like him, we will see him as he is. It doesn’t appear what we shall be but we know when He appears.” But now, what is this talking about? It seems that the Bible teaches an appearing of Christ in the future to all believers at once. We’re having appearances of Jesus all over the world to individuals. I don’t believe it’s biblical. Now if this is a dream then I could accept that, something happens in a dream, it’s not literally Jesus there, and He’s speaking to them, I believe He can speak to them in a dream. But they’re going to have to know the gospel; it will have to lead them to the gospel. Even Peter, when he had this sheet let down from heaven in Acts 10, he didn’t know what it meant. God had to speak to him with a voice and to tell him, but there again, this is not the gospel. So, I would have great caution and concern about this event.

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Bro Blaine

Brethren. What are we to make of Muslims who claim to come to Jesus through a dream or a vision. While we are debating the fiction of The Shack. And its apparent false teaching. Reports are coming in daily of Muslims who are turning to Christ via a dream or a vision. Yet to respected men of God for calling these visions and dreams into question. Actually, in reading their articles, they would discount the dreams and visions as not being real.

So are we to conclude again that Muslims who have had such dreams and visions are false converts? ? Are we to conclude that people such as Dr. Tom Doyle, who wrote about such dreams and visions in 2 books are deceived. Could Dr. David Hunt and Dr. John MacArthur be right that God has stopped working in dreams and visions and is only working through the printed word?

I put forward these questions for discussion. To me, this is of greater concern than the fiction of The Shack. Because the reports of Muslims come into Christ, who dreams and visions are real. At least the reports are. Whether the dreams and visions themselves are real, I suppose can be called into question.

Just pondering these things right now. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if there might be a case for cessationism. If so. This will certainly change the dynamic of my prayer call.

Bro Blaine