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The story is told of an Irishman..........

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proudpapa Mar 17, 2017

"The story is told of an Irishman who all of his life had been, as so many of his nation are, a member of the Roman Catholic church but some one had given him a New Testament and through reading it he had been brought to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. He had learned that a man may have eternal life in this world and know it, that he may have all his sins forgiven and be certain of it, that he need not go to any human intermediary but may go direct to the blessed Lord Himself to confess his sins and obtain forgiveness. The result of his study gave Patrick great joy and happiness. He did not know any one like minded with whom he could have Christian fellowship so when others went to the parish church, he remained at home poring over the sacred pages of his New Testament, a Book which he had never seen before but which now meant so much to him. Finally the parish priest missed his erstwhile faithful parishioner so he arranged to visit him. He came on a day when this happy convert was reading his New Testament and as the priest entered the room Patrick rose to meet him with the Book in his hand. "What book is that?” the priest asked.

And Patrick answered, "Well, sure and your Reverence, it’s the New Testament.”

"But Patrick don’t you know that that is not a Book for an ignorant man like you to be reading without instruction and help? You will be forming your own private judgment about things and making all kinds of mistakes and going off into some heresy.”

But Patrick said, "Well sure, I have just been reading here, and it’s the blessed apostle Peter says it, ‘As new born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby’ (1 Peter 2:2), and sure, your Reverence, I have just been born again and I am a babe in Christ and it is the milk I’m thirsting after and I am reading the Word to get it.”

"That is very good, Patrick, but you need help and instruction, and the Almighty has appointed the clergy to be the milkmen; He has given them the knowledge of the truth and when you want instruction, you should come to the church and we will give it to you as you are able to bear it. You get to studying for yourself and you are sure to go wrong.”

But Patrick said, "Out there in the shed I have a cow and when I was sick some time ago, I had to hire a man to milk her and I soon found he was stealing half of the milk and filling the bucket with water, but when I got well, I discharged him and took to milking me own cow and now I am getting the rich cream. When I was depending upon you, it was milk and water stuff you were giving me, now, thank God, I am milking me own cow and it’s the cream of the Word I am getting.”

Excerpt from : Is Peter the Rock Upon Which the Church is Built?
By Dr. Harry A. Ironside | 1935

https://www.moodymedia.org/articles/peter-rock-upon-which-church-built/

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StirItUp Mar 17, 2017

LOL!

Take that, you hirelings and false prophets!

sermonindex Mar 17, 2017


Of course this article is showing and extreme in church history to prove a point. But the balance would be that independent bible thinking apart from any instruction from Christian leaders in the body of Christ that God gifts will result in people being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

Ephesians 4:14 New International Version (NIV)

14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

And how can we not be in this circumstance of never knowing the truth and always believing a new teaching by some brother or sister? it is by the instruction of God gifted leaders in the body of Christ, a few verses earlier in Ephesians 4:11 gives us that answer.

God never wanted us to try and re-figure out all of Christianity every generation from the Bible alone by ourselves. We have believers who have passed on the truth and traditions of the Apostles that we can learn from.

Modern evangelicalism in America is a picture of this "waves of the sea" thousands of denominations starting with all different ideas of the truth. Instead we should ask what is the faith delivered to the saints in the beginning? (Jude 1:3). The answer lies not in a new doctrine or revelation but in the old belief since the beginning.

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StirItUp Mar 17, 2017

Agreed Greg,

As long as leaders do not move away from that teaching already delivered to us by the apostles and prophets and in accordance with the written Word of God (in context) we can and will certainly benefit from it.

Blessings,

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proudpapa Mar 17, 2017

"Another story is told of a little lad sitting on the curb in Johannesburg in South Africa, reading a New Testament when the priest passed by and, recognizing him as a child of a family belonging to his flock, said, "My boy, what is that book you are reading?”

"It is the New Testament, father,” he said.

"But that is not for an ignorant little boy like you to be reading.”

The lad replied, "Sure but I have a search warrant to read it.”

"A search warrant! Why, what do you mean?”

"It says here, ‘Search the Scriptures,’ and so I am after doing what I am told.”

How can any one say that Christians are not capable of reading the Word of God and getting the mind of the Lord when the Holy Spirit has been sent from heaven for the express purpose of opening the truth to those who honestly seek that truth and are prepared to walk according to it?

Our blessed Lord said of the Holy Spirit, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26). Imagine a man cast out on a desert island with nothing but a copy of the Bible, no teacher, no clergy man, no priest, no church, no other books of any kind to instruct him. Do you mean to say that that man is left without the possibility of acquiring sufficient truth for the saving of his soul because he is beyond the reach of the visible church? Surely not. Wherever a man honestly seeks to know the mind of God, the Holy Spirit is there to reveal the truth to him." - Harry Ironside

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proudpapa Mar 17, 2017

RE : /// Modern evangelicalism in America is a picture of this "waves of the sea" thousands of denominations starting with all different ideas of the truth.///

The divisions did not start with American evangelicalism, divisions have been going on throughout church history and there has been very little continuity on any subject.
and so we should conclude that church history or tradition is not an adequate lens by which to read the Scripture.

add : The reason for the divisions throughout history can be answered with a very deep study of 1 Cor.,.
Leadership has to often served as or covered the Head of each man instead of pointing each man to there true "Head"

The Word "evangelicalism" encompasses a certain amount of Basic unity in itself :

"Evangelicalism (/ˌiːvænˈdʒɛlɪkəlˌɪzəm/, /ˌɛvən/-), Evangelical Christianity, or Evangelical Protestantism[a] is a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity which maintains the belief that the essence of the gospel consists of the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement.[1][2] Evangelicals believe in the centrality of the conversion or the "born again" experience in receiving salvation, in the authority of the Bible as God's revelation to humanity, and in spreading the Christian message."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism


sermonindex Mar 17, 2017

Bro Greg writes............

"Of course this article is showing and extreme in church history to prove a point."

I am going to have to disagree with that point. Far from being an extreme or an anecdote, this was the norm for 1500 years. In fact the truth goes further than the article. The truth is that Catholics were told never to read the Bible. I know that is shocking to North Americans but their fundamental lack of understanding of Catholic tradition should not cloud their judgement.

There was a reason why the Bible was chained to the pew. There was a reason why the Catholics were so upset when John Wycliff translated the Bible. In fact " upset," is far too mild a word. All hell broke loose against those who would dare to disseminate the word and share it without license. As we know, the Pope had John's body exhumed and his bones burned.

Knowledge is power. And those in power had no desire whatsoever to share what they thought they had, so they kept the people ignorant of what the Word truly said. Poor John Hus, who shared the Bible that Wycliff had translated was burned to death in 1415 for daring to do so and they used the translated Bible as kindling to start the fire. Pure evil.

So, certainly no extreme in church history. The extreme was the so called clergy or leaders of the people stifling and holding the Word back from the ordinary folks........bro Frank

sermonindex Mar 17, 2017

I am going to have to disagree with that point. Far from being an extreme or an anecdote, this was the norm for 1500 years.

Dear brother,

Are you saying that since AD 0- 1500 the Catholic system was in place? Or since the death of the original apostles?

I personally believe what we see as the modern catholic church did not start to exist towards the dark ages AD 500-800 and the official split of the Roman Catholic Church from the Eastern Orthodox Church was in 1100 AD.

Martin Luther in AD 1500 did not repudiate all of what was the Roman Catholic Church neither did most reformers they sought to keep many of the traditions of the Church as they were apostolic since the beginning.

sermonindex Mar 17, 2017

Bro Greg writes...........

"I personally believe what we see as the modern catholic church did not start to exist towards the dark ages AD 500-800 and the official split of the Roman Catholic Church from the Eastern Orthodox Church was in 1100 AD."

Well bro, if 500 is correct and it is probably a wee bit before this, then 2000-500 = 1500 years :) But, as you probably know, it was in the mid fourth century (350 or thereabouts) that the established catholic church created a licensing system, whereby one could not teach/share Gospel unless one was licensed by the "Universal Church." This practice of not allowing Catholics to read the Bible existed still in Scotland in the 1960s and 70s. It was uterrly frowned upon ( ancient evil spirit of control) because people were considered too stupid to read and understand the Scriptures. Now this is rich from the organization that gave us Maryology, salvation by works, purgatory, co-medeatrix, paying and praying souls out of purgatory,confession , infant baptism, transubstantiation and so on and so on. One error on top of another error multiplied by every decade and every century until the Gospel itself is wiped out and replaced by something very ugly..........bro Frank

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Heydave Mar 17, 2017

"I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy who drives the plough to know more of the scriptures than you do."

-William Tyndale.


"I perceived how that it was impossible to establish the lay people in any truth except the Scripture were plainly laid before their eyes in their mother tongue."

- William Tyndale


sermonindex Mar 17, 2017

John 5:39

...You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life...

The Jews had the Law and the prophets and the Psalms. Yet they could not recognize the testimony of such that would bring them to their Messiah. Who would give them life.

We have the Bible. Yet we fail to recognize its testimony to bring us to Jesus. Him. who will give us life.

Our life is found in a Person who is Truth. And His name is Jesus. We are not bound to a book. But we are bound to Person. And His name is Jesus.

Bro Blaine

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proudpapa Mar 17, 2017

Read very carefully John 5:39 to the end of the chapter.

RE : ///John 5:39
...You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life...///

The Pharisees did not read the Scriptures for themselves

because they did not believe the Scripture's ! John 5:47

Had the Pharisees believed the Scriptures they Would have recognized Jesus.

But there trust was not in the Power of God to inspire the Scriptures!

But rather in the fathers of there religion and there traditions to interput the Scriptures for them.

sermonindex Mar 17, 2017

Granted PP. But if we are not careful, We wind up worshipping the Bible as the Jews worshipped the Law. Something called bibliolatry Akin to idolatry? Worshiping the written word (Bible) over the living word (Jesus).

For sure, we thank God that we have the scriptures. For they are the sacred writings that lead us to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. But the end result of scriptures is Christ Himself not the book itself.

Bro Blaine

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Heydave Mar 18, 2017

Of course the bible leads us to know the one in whom is eternal life and is not eternal life itself. However let's not be led down a back alley argument on this, as the point of the discussion is WHO or WHAT is the revelation of truth of eternal life in Christ. Is it the bible or is it the 'priests'? You could add is it tradition or is it visions men have?

As much as the Holy Spirit may use teachers, dreams or visions, ultimately it has to be the bible that authenticates any of these. If they contradict the scriptures they are to be rejected. So we have the 'word of God' as our light shinning in a dark and increasing deceived world as a sure foundation to stand on.

In these days it is more likely the bible is undermined than being over elevated or worshipped, particularly in the church. So do not fall into that trap and elevate any person or experience over the scriptures. Only Jesus Christ himself is above the bible.

Let us all be good Bareans and search the scriptures to find the truth of who Christ is that we may correctly know him and know His will for each of us, not being deceived by the trickery of men who may deceive with smooth words or stories!

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proudpapa Mar 18, 2017

add : RE : ///Let us all be good Bareans and search the scriptures to find the truth of who Christ is that we may correctly know him and know His will for each of us, not being deceived by the trickery of men who may deceive with smooth words or stories!////

very good !

Ignatius of Loyola was a very spiritual man , self denial , meditations , visions etc. etc.

True Christian Spirituality looks like What we see in Spurgeons observation of John Bunyan :
"Why, this man is a living Bible!” Prick him anywhere””his blood is Bibline, the very essence of the Bible flows from him. He cannot speak without quoting a text, for his very soul is full of the Word of God. I commend his example to you, beloved.

sermonindex Mar 18, 2017

Brothers, you keep saying we need to be good. Bereans. If I remember correctly, the Bereans were Jews who had access to the Torah. Thus they could examine the claims made by Paul as regards to the Old Testament Messianic promises of Jesus.

What are you going to do with those unreached people groups that do not have a verse of scripture in their heart language? Also, how did Paul reach out to the Gentiles who did not have access to the Old Testament?

We tend to read our bibles with a western mindset. Assuming that everybody is literate and has access to the printed word. However, speak with missionaries who minister out on the front lines, and this is not always the case.

Just suggesting we need to rethink our paradigm from the printed word. And see that God works in other ways other than the printed word. I realize this is heresy to some, maybe many in the forum. But the reality of missions does not comport with our western theological mindset.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

Bro Blaine

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proudpapa Mar 18, 2017

RE : /// Just suggesting we need to rethink our paradigm from the printed word. And see that God works in other ways other than the printed word.///

Rather it be a vision or someone giving the message in another language, the true message will always be consistent with the Scriptures!

add : Brother Bear, You are sorta going off track from anything pertaining to the artical.

sermonindex Mar 18, 2017

Ignatius of Loyola was a very spiritual man , self denial , meditations , visions etc. etc.

He was the founder of the Jesuits. Many claim him to be evil or wrong but it was a godly movement to start with, and turned bad later on.

We are to live a life of godliness and look beyond the sacred page to know God, experience Him and have our lives be like Jesus on earth. This does not happen by just quoting bible verses or memorizing but by the grace of God experiencing the divine nature of God and obeying the Spirit of God.

--

John Owen, probably the most prominent and respected academic leader of Bunyan’s own era, once went to hear Bunyan preach. Charles II, hearing of it, asked the learned doctor of divinity why someone as thoroughly educated as he would want to hear a mere tinker preach. Owen replied, "May it please your Majesty, if I could possess the tinker’s abilities to grip men’s hearts, I would gladly give in exchange all my learning.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2007/10/john-owen-and-charles-spurgeon-on-john/

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proudpapa Mar 18, 2017

Rules for Thinking with the Church

Ignatius of Loyola, Saint 1491-1556
Page: 3
THE FOLLOWING rules should be observed to foster the true attitude of mind we ought to have in the Church militant.

1. We must put aside all judgment of our own, and keep the mind ever ready and prompt to obey in all things the true Spouse of Jesus Christ, our holy Mother, the hierarchical Church.

2. We should praise sacramental confession, the yearly reception of the Most Blessed Sacrament, and praise more highly monthly reception, and still more weekly Communion, provided requisite and proper dispositions are present.

3. We ought to praise the frequent hearing of Mass, the singing of hymns, psalmody, and long prayers whether in the church or outside; likewise, the hours arranged at fixed times for the whole Divine Office, for every kind of prayer, and for the canonical hours.

4. We must praise highly religious life, virginity, and continency; and matrimony ought not be praised as much as any of these.

5. We should praise vows of religion, obedience, poverty, chastity, and vows to perform other works of supererogation conducive to perfection. However, it must be remembered that a vow deals with matters that lead us closer to evangelical perfection. Hence, whatever tends to withdraw one from perfection may not be made the object of a vow, for example, a business career, the married state, and so forth.

6. We should show our esteem for the relics of the saints by venerating them and praying to the saints. We should praise visits to the Station Churches, pilgrimages, indulgences, jubilees, crusade indults, the lighting of candles in churches.

7. We muse praise the regulations of the Church with regard to fast and abstinence, for example, in Lent, on Ember Days, Vigils, Fridays, and Saturdays. We should praise all works of penance, not only those that are interior but also those that are exterior.

8. We ought to praise not only the building and adornment of churches, but also images and veneration of them according to the subject they represent.

9. Finally, we must praise all the commandments of the Church, and be on the alert to find reasons to defend them, and by no means in order to criticize them.

10. We should be more ready to approve and praise the orders, recommendations, and way of acting of our superiors than to find fault with them. Though some of the orders, etc., may not have been praiseworthy, yet to speak against them, either when preaching in public or in speaking before the people, would rather be the cause of murmuring and scandal than of profit. As a consequence, the people would become angry with their superiors, whether secular or spiritual. But while it does harm in the absence of our superiors to speak evil of them before the people, it may be profitable to discuss their bad conduct with those who can apply a remedy.

11. We should praise both positive theology and that of the Scholastics. It is characteristic of the positive doctors, such as St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Gregory, and others, to rouse the affections so that we are moved to love and serve God our Lord in all things. On the other hand, it is more characteristic of the scholastic doctors, such as St. Thomas, St. Bonaventure, the Master of the Sentences, and others, to define and state clearly, according to the needs of our times, the doctrines that are necessary for external salvation, and that help to refute and expose more efficaciously all errors and fallacies. Further, just because scholastic doctors belong to more recent times, they not only have the advantage of correct understanding of Holy Scripture and of the teaching of the saints and positive doctors, but, enlightened by the grace of God, they also make use of the decisions of the Councils and of the definitions and decrees of our holy Mother Church.

12. We must be on our guard against making comparisons between those who are still living and the saints who have gone before us, for no small error is committed if we say: "This man is wiser than St. Augustine," "He is another St. Francis or even greater," "He is equal to St. Paul in goodness and sanctity," and so on.

http://divdl.library.yale.edu/dl/FullText.aspx?qc=AdHoc&q=3175

sermonindex Mar 18, 2017

...We are to live a life of godliness and look beyond the sacred page to know God, experience Him and have our lives be like Jesus on earth. This does not happen by just quoting bible verses or memorizing but by the grace of God experiencing the divine nature of God and obeying the Spirit of God...

I would agree with this. For it speaks of relationship with Jesus as opposed to regulation by law. Or serving in the newness of the Spirit as opposed to the oldness of the letter.

Bro Blaine

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