What is Church?

A long time ago the "Church," was redefined by men as something separate from the people. They created a building and a system and they called it their own. This is always the folly of men. Consider this, consider what men would do with this. Say, we had in our possession , the bush that burned and the sand that surrounded it when Moses encountered the Lord.It would be venerated and visited by the masses of people and it would be worshiped. Yet all it would be would be a bush and some sand. It is the presence of God that makes the ground Holy, whether it is a bush, some sand, a building , a living room, a basement. God dwells within His people. They are the Church. They are living stones, built upon the chief stone, the cornerstone. When two or three of them gather together, then He is there in the midst of them.

Two or three brothers and sisters. Not one, for one can worship and pray alone and come before the throne, but to the two or three there lies the promise. This corporate presence of God is unique and beautiful and Holy and majestic. It cannot be compared. It cannot because it was created that way, praise the Lord. Now if I know that and you know that then the enemy of our souls knows that too. This, I would charge, would become one of his greatest tasks, to destroy genuine gatherings of the saints. He has had much success but has ultimately failed. Just when he thinks he has down a wonderful job, then God begins to call all His children all over the world, His remnant children to come together for these, the final days.

What seems like the enemy's greatest victory will become his ultimate defeat. As the saints begin to gather in defiance of his works, then he will reveal himself and come against them with hell and all of it's fury. And then, in the midst of all of that, the Bridegroom returns for His bride. The lion of Judah returns and He rides, not on a donkey but on a stallion. Not now as the Lamb but as the Lion. He comes to bring justice and judgement. There will be a fire in His eyes and a two edged sword in His mouth, glory to God, glory to God............bro Frank

A long time ago the "Church," was redefined by men as something separate from the people.

What I have a hard time doing is following this logic as the word "Church" is used in the New Testament multiple times as the corporate gathering of believers under Apostles and Jesus Christ, or rather to put it better "above" them as the foundation is said to be the Lord Himself and the Apostles. Also the Apostles teachings and traditions are the foundation of the Church.

Acts 11:22 - News of this reached the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch.

This means that there was a unimamous association of believers in Jersusalem where apostles were guiding the choices made. "they" are presumably the Elders and Apostles?

Romans 16:1 [ Personal Greetings ] I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

1 Corinthians 7:17 [ Concerning Change of Status ] Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

It seems clear the Apostle is stating that the same rule, tradition or command was being applied to all churches, meaning there was leaders guiding all the churches in certain ways.

1 Corinthians 11:16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice””nor do the churches of God.

Some practices were binding to all churches.

1 Corinthians 11:22 Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter!

the church is spoken as something "outside" the people.

1 Corinthians 16:19 [ Final Greetings ] The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Priscilla greet you warmly in the Lord, and so does the church that meets at their house.

2 Corinthians 11:28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

1 Timothy 3:5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)

1 Timothy 5:16 If any woman who is a believer has widows in her care, she should continue to help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need.

The Church is spoken as a coporate entity that has rules and helps widows.

1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

3 John 1:10 So when I come, I will call attention to what he is doing, spreading malicious nonsense about us. Not satisfied with that, he even refuses to welcome other believers. He also stops those who want to do so and puts them out of the church.

We are correct to say the Church is the people of God but it is also the Church is
the intention of God which has rules, structure and a way it should run or behave. It is a structure, institution. A country, nation or any other term we can use to classify it in someway.

Paul speaks of it as a "race" where he says Jews, Gentiles and the Church of God. Meaning it is a new race of humanity on earth.

What seems like the enemy's greatest victory will become his ultimate defeat. As the saints begin to gather in defiance of his works, then he will reveal himself and come against them with hell and all of it's fury. And then, in the midst of all of that, the Bridegroom returns for His bride. The lion of Judah returns and He rides, not on a donkey but on a stallion. Not now as the Lamb but as the Lion. He comes to bring justice and judgement.

Brother Frank, do you mean that "his works" is what is called the "Church" whether denominational or other forms of Church associations?

A short reply to bro Greg is ..........

Church, as expressed in the Word, is a community of believers which are indeed governed by elders with varying giftings. What it is not is four walls on a Sunday morning. Did this community of believers gather? Yes indeed, but one town, one community one church. Too many to gather in one house? Gather in many houses in one town, but one community, one church. Special speaker coming, say the Apostle Paul, all gather in a field because no house could hold the many from the one Church who were one community governed by one body of elders.

Can you give a single example of anywhere in the west where there is one town, one community, one church? No, there are theifdoms and kindoms of men, each little kingdom with their own officials and who are goverened, typically by the theologies of a man or group of men from the past. My home town of Greenock has over 40 different " churches," of every denomination/stripe/color/creed you can imagine, and that is just in a small town of 40,000 people, which, by the way, less that 3% go to "church." Church was never something that you went to in the Scriptures, it was something that you were apart of, the community of believers.............bro Frank

Beekpr,

Our hearts and souls in this matter are in perfect alignment. This is the testimony from saints around the world as the "Christendom," crumbles all around them into a morass of compromise and systematized programming...........bro Frank

Sree,

Your premise is wrong therefore your comments are off. I was part of a local body for over 20 years, probably a lot longer than you have actually been saved I would imagine. Again, youth versus maturity is always an issue. God bless you brother, my piece was not an invitation for a intellectual debate, it was written for the mature saints who has spent decades in what we call " the local church." So, your own premise, wrong in this case, could be turned around and it is you who observe the community that has left what is called " the local church," from the outside.

On a fellowship note. After having observed and been part of what is called fellowship among men in " local churches," for over two decades, I would almost guarantee that I have more actual fellowship with other saints in my community in one week, than most men in a " local church," would have in a year. Sitting in a pew for one hour a week, or maybe two hours if one goes on a Wednesday night, is not the fellowship of the saints..................bro Frank

The fellowships that I describe and the people that I write to were committed fellowships. This is not about training Sree, it is about spiritual discernment and maturity ( in a spiritual sense)

I appreciate that you have been a part of just one church Sree and it may be wonderful. Can I ask you what caste you belong to? Is there, within your local church, a predominant caste in the ruling structure? Has your church abandoned the caste system and are their marriages within your church between the highest castes and the lowest castes?.............bro Frank

Sree,

I already figured you belonged to "the highest," caste in India, it always shines through. You failed to mention the hierarchy of your wonderful local church and if they exclusively also belonged to the highers castes. Are there any Dalits on the eldership team of your local church?

Churches are more often than nought mere expressions of the local culture, a sub culture rather than a counter culture. Sree, it would be the biggest surprise of my life if your own local church was a counter culture and stood as a shining light above the horrendous caste system of India which is a blight on the face of mankind, as is the class system of Britain. I am so glad, that for the most part, the Lord's disciples were uneducated men who had no high thoughts about themselves. The Lord takes the foolish things of this world and confounds the wise........bro Frank

The sin of partiality......

My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
(Jas 2:1-6)

Brothers,

I would ask that the conversation not centre on the person as accusations of any form even if muted and done discreetly still is the same. We must have the humility to learn of each other and not try and judge motives.

Can you give a single example of anywhere in the west where there is one town, one community, one church? No, there are theifdoms and kindoms of men, each little kingdom with their own officials and who are goverened, typically by the theologies of a man or group of men from the past. My home town of Greenock has over 40 different " churches," of every denomination/stripe/color/creed you can imagine, and that is just in a small town of 40,000 people, which, by the way, less that 3% go to "church." Church was never something that you went to in the Scriptures, it was something that you were apart of, the community of believers

My only thought is it seems your gauging of what a "Church is" is making it so that there is no Church that you can see of what you are looking for.

To me the early Church was a unified Church and it was "one" though as Sreeram has pointed out there have always been disagreements and denominations in the Church.

Even reformers such as Martin Luther saw the Church as one and did not think they were starting a "new church" but continuing with the one old Church.

The Church to me is not just people but also what the New Testament teaches about how the assembly of believers functions, the sort of rules, frame work, etc, this means the Church is beyond any one believer but is God-given institution such as the Temple or the priests in the old Testament.

Bro Greg writes..........

"there have always been disagreements and denominations in the Church."

That statement is simply not true. By slipping in the word " denomination," does not lend to the truth brother. Yes, disagreements, no denominations. We have had this conversation before and we clearly disagree.

You refer to Luther brother and I am simply using Scriptures as a guide. In the Scriptures there is no denominations nor is there a call for them. Sree used his own fellowship as an example and I was simply probing to see if his fellowship was indeed free from the worse excesses of the world. When the classes or castes of the world dominate our fellowships, then we are in direct violation of the Scripture I referred to. I suggest if we stick to Scriptures to gain our truths we would have greater clarity, as opposed to Luther or Calvin or Augustine or any other man who had opinions but who were mere fallible men as opposed to the infallible Scriptures...............bro Frank

PP writes...........

"The New Testament is totally different than the Temple and Priest concept. It teaches A body paradigm with "One head" and a Priesthood of all believers concept."

It does indeed brother, nor does it instigate Popes or Cardinals...............bro Frank

It does indeed brother, nor does it instigate Popes or Cardinals...............bro Frank

But my concern is not the repudiation of popes or cardinals but of the very system of Church laid out in the New Testament. And it is a strong statement that you made in this thread that you cannot find such a Church anywhere in North America? Labelling all denominations and sects of Christianity as theologies of men. Then what is the truth, who ever had it in Church history?

Or is there a new revealed way that we have to understand now as the right way to do Church?

I think your initial post and the discussion from your end begs these questions to be answered.

Bro Greg,

Let me suggest you read the OP again without any pre-conceived notions as to who you think I am or what you think I believe. The premise of my very short OP was that where two or three are gathered, then He is in the midst of us. It is such a simple point but always garners so much opposition.

The simplicity of the Word of God is what I stake my eternal life on, not the words of theologians and schoolmen and elite theology. The one great example of how a gathering actually should be, ironically, is the Corinthian church.

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.(1Co 14:24-25)

We learn so much from Paul bringing into order a church that was over zealous. Everyone had a word and a song and tongue and so on. Paul bring some order to that as he suggest two or three of each of these gifts coming from the priesthood of believers. It is so simple and so profound that the unsaved and the unlearned would fall down and worship God and the report would be spread aloud that God is truly in their midst. But, as always, prophets like A.W.Tozer speaks by the power of God and pronounces.........

"Let me go out on a limb a little bit and prophesy. I see the time coming when all the holy men whose eyes have been opened by the Holy Spirit will desert worldly Evangelicalism, one by one. The house will be left desolate and there will not be a man of God, a man in whom the Holy Spirit dwells,left among them."

"I hear Jesus saying...Mat 23:37-38: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate"

"As the Church now stands, the man who sees this condition of worldly evangelicalism is written off as somewhat fanatical. But the day is coming when the house will be left desolate and there will not be a man of God among them. I would like to live long enough to watch this develop and see how things turn out. I would like to live to see the time when the men and woman of God-holy, separated and spiritually enlightened - walk out of the evangelical church and form a group of their own; when they get off the sinking ship and let her go down in the brackish and worldliness and form a new ark to ride out the storm."(A.W.Tozer)

By your own estimations brother, I am a fanatic. I plead guilty..........bro Frank