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Who should be baptized?

S
savannah Mar 31, 2017

John Wesley wrote:

The grand question is, Who are the proper subjects of baptism? grown persons only, or infants also? In order to answer this fully, I shall, First, lay down the grounds of infant baptism, taken from Scripture, reason, and primitive, universal practice; and, Secondly, answer the objections against it.

As to the grounds of it: If infants are guilty of original sin, then they are proper subjects of baptism; seeing, in the ordinary way, they cannot be saved, unless this be washed away by baptism. It has been already proved, that this original stain cleaves to every child of man; and that hereby they are children of wrath, and liable to eternal damnation. It is true, the Second Adam has found a remedy for the disease which came upon all by the offense of the first. But the benefit of this is to be received through the means which he hath appointed; through baptism in particular, which is the ordinary means he hath appointed for that purpose; and to which God hath tied us, though he may not have tied himself. Indeed, where it cannot be had, the case is different, but extraordinary cases do not make void a standing rule. This therefore is our First ground. Infants need to be washed from original sin; therefore they are proper subjects of baptism.

Secondly. If infants are capable of making a covenant, and were and still are under the evangelical covenant, then they have a right to baptism, which is the entering seal thereof. But infants are capable of making a covenant, and were and still are under the evangelical covenant. The custom of nations and common reason of mankind prove that infants may enter into a covenant, and may be obliged by compacts made by others in their name, and receive advantage by them. But we have stronger proof than this, even God’s own word: "Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord, ”” your captains, with all the men of Israel; your little ones, your wives and the stranger, ”” that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God.” (Deuteronomy 29:10-12.) Now, God would never have made a covenant with little ones, if they had not been capable of it. It is not said children only, but little children, the Hebrew word properly signifying infants. And these may be still, as they were of old, obliged to perform, in after time, what they are not capable of performing at the time of their entering into that obligation.

The infants of believers, the true children of faithful Abraham, always were under the gospel covenant. They were included in it, they had a right to it and to the seal of it; as an infant heir has a right to his estate, though he cannot yet have actual possession. The covenant with Abraham was a gospel covenant; the condition the same, namely, faith, which the Apostle observes was "imputed unto him for righteousness.” The inseparable fruit of this faith was obedience; for by faith he left his country, and offered his son. The benefits were the same; for God promised "I will be thy God, and the God of thy seed after thee:” And he can promise no more to any creature; for this includes all blessings, temporal and eternal. The Mediator is the same; for it was in his Seed, that is, in Christ, (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16,) that all nations were to be blessed; on which very account the Apostle says, "The gospel was preached unto Abraham.” (Galatians 3:8.) Now, the same promise that was made to him, the same covenant that was made with him, was made "with his children after him.” (Genesis 17:7; Galatians 3:7.) And upon that account it is called "an everlasting covenant.” In this covenant children were also obliged to what they knew not, to the same faith and obedience with Abraham. And so they are still; as they are still equally entitled to all the benefits and promises of it.

Circumcision was then the seal of the covenant; which is itself therefore figuratively termed the covenant. (Acts 7:8.) Hereby the children of those who professed the true religion were then admitted into it, and obliged to the conditions of it; and when the law was added, to the observance of that also. And when the old seal of circumcision was taken off, this of baptism was added in its room; our Lord appointing one positive institution to succeed another. A new seal was set to Abraham’s covenant; the seals differed, but the deed was the same; only that part was struck off which was political or ceremonial. That baptism came in the room of circumcision, appears as well from the clear reason of the thing, as from the Apostle’s argument, where, after circumcision, he mentions baptism, as that wherein God had "forgiven us our trespasses;” to which he adds, the "blotting out the hand-writing of ordinances,” plainly relating to circumcision and other Jewish rites; which as fairly implies, that baptism came in the room of circumcision, as our Savior’s styling the other sacrament the passover, (Colossians 2:11-13; Luke 22:15,) shows that it was instituted in the place of it. Nor is it any proof that baptism did not succeed circumcision, because it differs in some circumstances, any more than it proves the Lord’s supper did not succeed the passover, because in several circumstances it differs from it. This then is a Second ground. Infants are capable of entering into covenant with God. As they always were, so they still are, under the evangelical covenant. Therefore they have a right to baptism, which is now the entering seal thereof.

Thirdly. If infants ought to come to Christ, if they are capable of admission into the Church of God, and consequently of solemn sacramental dedication to him, then they are proper subjects of baptism. But infants are capable of coming to Christ, of admission into the Church, and solemn dedication to God. That infants ought to come to Christ, appears from his own words: "They brought little children to Christ, and the disciples rebuked them. And Jesus said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 19:13, 14.) St. Luke expresses it still more strongly: "They brought unto him even infants, that he might touch them.” (18:15.) These children were so little that they were brought to him; yet he says, "Suffer them to come unto me:” So little, that he "took them up in his arms;” yet he rebukes those who would have hindered their coming to him. And his command respected the future as well as the present. Therefore his disciples or Ministers are still to suffer infants to come, that is, to be brought, unto Christ. But they cannot now come to him, unless by being brought into the Church; which cannot be but by baptism. Yea, and "of such,” says our Lord, "is the kingdom of heaven;” not of such only as were like these infants. For if they themselves were not fit to be subjects of that kingdom, how could others be so, because they were like them? Infants, therefore, are capable of being admitted into the Church, and have a right thereto. Even under the Old Testament they were admitted into it by circumcision. And can we suppose they are in a worse condition under the gospel, than they were under the law? and that our Lord would take away any privileges which they then enjoyed? Would he not rather make additions to them? This, then, is a Third ground. Infants ought to come to Christ, and no man ought to forbid them. They are capable of admission into the Church of God. Therefore, they are proper subjects of baptism.

Fourthly. If the Apostles baptized infants, then are they proper subjects of baptism. But the Apostles baptized infants, as is plain from the following consideration: The Jews constantly baptized as well as circumcised all infant proselytes. Our Lord, therefore, commanding his Apostles to proselyte or disciple all nations by baptizing them, and not forbidding them to receive infants as well as others, they must needs baptize children also. That the Jews admitted proselytes by baptism as well as by circumcision, even whole families together, parents and children, we have the unanimous testimony of their most ancient, learned, and authentic writers. The males they received by baptism and circumcision; the women by baptism only. Consequently, the Apostles, unless our Lord had expressly forbidden it, would of course do the same thing. Indeed, the consequence would hold from circumcision only. For if it was the custom of the Jews, when they gathered proselytes out of all nations, to admit children into the Church by circumcision, though they could not actually believe the law, or obey it; then the Apostles, making proselytes to Christianity by baptism, could never think of excluding children, whom the Jews always admitted, (the reason for their admission being the same,) unless our Lord had expressly forbidden it. It follows, the Apostles baptized infants. Therefore, they are proper subjects of baptism.

If it be objected, "There is no express mention in Scripture of any infants whom the Apostles baptized,” I would ask, Suppose no mention had been made in the Acts of those two women baptized by the Apostles, yet might we not fairly conclude, that when so many thousands, so many entire households, were baptized, women were not excluded? especially since it was the known custom of the Jews to baptize them? The same holds of children; nay, more strongly, on the account of circumcision. Three thousand were baptized by the Apostles in one day, and five thousand in another. And can it be reasonably supposed that there were no children among such vast numbers? Again: The Apostles baptized many families; nay, we hardly read of one master of a family, who was converted and baptized, but his whole family (as was before the custom among the Jews) were baptized with him: Thus the "jailer’s household, he and all his; the household of Gaius, of Stephanas, of Crispus.” And can we suppose, that in all these households, which, we read, were, without exception, baptized, there should not be so much as one child or infant? But to go one step further: St. Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the remission of sins. For the promise is to you, and to your children.” (Acts 2:38, 39.) Indeed, the answer is made directly to those who asked, "What shall we do?” But it reaches farther than to those who asked the question. And though children could not actually repent, yet they might be baptized. And that they are included, appears, (1.)Because the Apostle addresses to "every one” of them, and in "every one” children must be contained. (2.)They are expressly mentioned: "The promise is to you, and to your children.”

Lastly. If to baptize infants has been the general practice of the Christian Church in all places and in all ages, then this must have been the practice of the Apostles, and, consequently, the mind of Christ. But to baptize infants has been the general practice of the Christian Church, in all places and in all ages. Of this we have unexceptionable witnesses: St. Austin for the Latin Church, who flourished before the year 400; and Origen for the Greek, born in the second century; both declaring, not only that the whole Church of Christ did then baptize infants, but likewise that they received this practice from the Apostles themselves. (August. de Genesi, 1. 10, c. 23; Orig. in Rom. vi.) St. Cyprian likewise is express for it, and a whole Council with him. (Epist. ad Fidum.) If need were, we might cite likewise Athanasius, Chrysostom, and a cloud of witnesses. Nor is there one instance to be found in all antiquity, of any orthodox Christian who denied baptism to children when brought to be baptized; nor any one of the Fathers, or ancient; writers, for the first eight hundred years at least, who held it unlawful. And that it has been the practice of all regular Churches ever since, is clear and manifest. Not only our own ancestors when first converted to Christianity, not only all the European Churches, but the African too and the Asiatic, even those of St. Thomas in the Indies, do, and ever did, baptize their children. The fact being thus cleared, that infant baptism has been the general practice of the Christian Church in all places and in all ages, that it has continued without interruption in the Church of God for above seventeen hundred years, we may safely conclude, it was handed down from the Apostles, who best knew the mind of Christ.

To sum up the evidence: If outward baptism be generally, in an ordinary way, necessary to salvation, and infants may be saved as well as adults, nor ought we to neglect any means of saving them; if our Lord commands such to come, to be brought unto him, and declares, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven;” if infants are capable of making a covenant, or having a covenant made for them by others, being included in Abraham’s covenant, (which was a covenant of faith, an evangelical covenant,) and never excluded by Christ; if they have; a right to be members of the Church, and were accordingly members of the Jewish; if, suppose our Lord had designed to exclude them from baptism, he must have expressly forbidden his Apostles to baptize them, (which none dares to affirm he did,) since otherwise they would do it of course, according to the universal practice of their nation; if it is highly probable they did so, even from the letter of Scripture, because they frequently baptized whole households, and it would be strange if there were no children among them; if the whole Church of Christ, for seventeen hundred years together, baptized infants, and were never opposed till the last century but one, by some not very holy men in Germany; lastly, if there are such inestimable benefits conferred in baptism, the washing away the guilt of original sin, the engrafting us into Christ, by making us members of his Church, and thereby giving us a right to all the blessings of the gospel; it follows, that infants may, yea, ought to be baptized, and that none ought to hinder them. I am, in the Last place, to answer those objections which are commonly brought against infant baptism: ””

The chief of these is: "Our Lord said to his Apostles, ‘Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.’ (Matthew 28:19.) Here Christ himself put teaching before baptizing. Therefore, infants, being incapable of being taught, are incapable of being baptized.” I answer, (1.)The order of words in Scripture is no certain rule for the order of things. We read in St. Mark 1:4: "John baptized in the wilderness, and preached the baptism of repentance;” and, verse 5, "They were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.” Now, either the order of words in Scripture does not always imply the same order of things; or it follows, that John baptized before his hearers either confessed or repented. But, (2.)The words are manifestly mistranslated. For if we read, "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them, ”” teaching them to observe all things,” it makes plain tautology, vain and senseless repetition. It ought to be translated, (which is the literal meaning of the words,) "Go and make disciples of all nations, by baptizing them.” That infants are capable of being made proselytes or disciples has been already proved; therefore this text, rightly translated, is no valid objection against infant baptism.

Their next objection is: "The Scripture says, ‘Repent and be baptized; believe and be baptized.’ Therefore, repentance and faith ought to go before baptism. But infants are incapable of these; therefore they are incapable of baptism.” I answer: Repentance and faith were to go before circumcision, as well as before baptism. Therefore, if this argument held, it would prove just as well, that infants were incapable of circumcision. But we know God himself determined the contrary, commanding them to be circumcised at eight days old. Now, if infants were capable of being circumcised, notwithstanding that repentance and faith were to go before circumcision in grown persons, they are just as capable of being baptized; notwithstanding that repentance and faith are, in grown persons, to go before baptism. This objection, therefore, is of no force; for it is as strong against circumcision of infants as infant baptism.

It is objected, Thirdly, "There is no command for it in Scripture. Now, God was angry with his own people, because they did that which, he said, ‘I commanded them not.’ (Jeremiah 7:31) One plain text would end all the dispute.” I answer, (1.) We have reason to fear it would not. It is as positively commanded in a very plain text of Scripture, that we should "teach and admonish one another with psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing to the Lord with grace in our hearts,” (Ephesians 5:19,) as it is to honor our father and mother: But does this put an end to all dispute? Do not these very persons absolutely refuse to do it, notwithstanding a plain text, an express command? I answer, (2.) They themselves practice what there is neither express command nor clear example for in Scripture. They have no express command for baptizing women. They say, indeed, "Women are implied in ‘all nations.’” They are; and so are infants too: But the command is not express for either. And for admitting women to the Lord’s supper, they have neither express command nor clear example. Yet they do it continually, without either one or the other. And they are justified therein by the plain reason of the thing. This also justifies as in baptizing infants, though without express command of clear example. If it be said, "But there is a command, ‘Let a man,’ anqrwpov, ‘examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread;’ (1 Corinthians 11:28;) the word ‘man,’ in the original, signifying indifferently either men or women:” I grant it does in other places; but here the word "himself,” immediately following, confines it to men only. "But women are implied in it, though not expressed.” Certainly; and so are infants in "all nations.” "But we have Scripture example for it: For it is said in the Acts, ‘The Apostles continued in prayer and supplication with the women.’” True, in prayer and supplication; but it is not said, "in communicating:” Nor have we one clear example of it in the Bible. Since, then, they admit women to the communion, without any express command or example, but only by consequence from Scripture, they can never show reason why infants should not be admitted to baptism, when there are so many scriptures which by fair consequence show they have a right to it, and are capable of it. As for the texts wherein God reproves his people for doing "what he commanded them not;” that phrase evidently means, what he had forbidden; particularly in that passage of Jeremiah. The whole verse is, "They have built the high places of Tophet, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I commanded them not.” Now, God had expressly forbidden them to do this; and that on pain of death. But surely there is a difference between the Jews offering their sons and daughters to devils, and Christians offering theirs to God. On the whole, therefore, it is not only lawful and innocent, but meet, right, and our bounden duty, in conformity to the uninterrupted practice of the whole Church of Christ from the earliest ages, to consecrate our children to God by baptism, as the Jewish Church were commanded to do by circumcision.

November 11, 1756.

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

Wesley : 1 . RE :/// ..then they are proper subjects of baptism; seeing, in the ordinary way, they cannot be saved, unless this be washed away by baptism...///

Spurgeon : ".... And equally is it far from our minds to believe that infants go to heaven through baptism””not to say, in the first place, that we believe infant sprinkling to be a human and carnal invention, an addition to the Word of God, and therefore wicked and injurious. When we reflect that it is rendered into some thing worse than superstition by being accompanied with falsehood, when children are taught that in their baptism they are made the children of God, and inheritors of the kingdom of heaven, which is as base a lie as ever was forged in hell, or uttered beneath the copes of heaven, our spirit sinks at the fearful errors which have crept into the Church, through the one little door of infant sprinkling. No; children are not saved because they are baptized, for if so, the Puseyite is quite right in refusing to bury our little children if they die unbaptized. Yes, the barbarian is quite right in driving the parent, as he does to this day, from the church yard of his own national Church, and telling him that his child may rot above-ground, and that it shall not be buried except it be at the dead of night, because the superstitious drops have never fallen on its brow. He is right enough if that baptism made the child a Christian, and if that child could not be saved without it. But a thing so revolting to feeling, is at once to be eschewed by Christian men. The child is saved, if snatched away by death as we are, on another ground than that of rites and ceremonies, and the will of man.

2. Wesley : RE /// Circumcision was then the seal of the covenant; which is itself therefore figuratively termed the covenant. (Acts 7:8.) Hereby the children of those who professed the true religion were then admitted into it, and obliged to the conditions of it; and when the law was added, to the observance of that also. And when the old seal of circumcision was taken off, this of baptism was added in its room;///

Spurgeon : We believe that the circumcision, not only of male adults, but of male infants, was divinely enjoined, and that the unconsciousness of the latter constituted no hindrance to an accomplishment of the design of this institution; and we doubt not God's right, if he had seen it good, to institute a rite under the Christian dispensation that should embrace the unconscious, both males and females; but we deny the shadow of evidence that he has so enacted. The existence of circumcision from Abraham proves it not.

Nor are we taught that baptism is in the place of circumcision, although in some things there is a resemblance in one to the other. The antitype of circumcision, or spiritual, Christian circumcision, is the renewal of the heart. Romans ii. 28, 29; 1 Corinthians 7. 19; Galatians 6. 15; Philippians iii. 3; Colossians ii. 11. The apostles and elders gathered together in Jerusalem, to consider the necessity of circumcision, which some of the baptized Jewish believers maintained, drop not a single hint to the erring, that baptism is in place of circumcision. The apostle of the Gentiles, warning the Colossian believers, and rebuking those in the churches of Galatia who held the destructive error, instead of teaching that baptism occupies the place of circumcision, teaches that Christian circumcision, the circumcision of Christ, is a circumcision "without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh." Nor is there in the fact that all children, or all the children of believers, are of "the kingdom of God," a particle of evidence that God has commanded their baptism.

to be continued

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

3 Wesley Re: ///Thirdly. If infants ought to come to Christ, if they are capable of admission into the Church of God, and consequently of solemn sacramental dedication to him, then they are proper subjects of baptism. But infants are capable of coming to Christ, of admission into the Church, and solemn dedication to God....///

Spurgeon : "The obtaining by infants, through baptism, of entrance into the church, of "a right sealed to the ordinances," that is, to the Lord's Supper, etc., and of "the tutelage of angels to be the infant's lifeguard," may be in the imagination of Paedobaptists; but these are not in the word of God, any more than that baptism is to elected infants "a 'seal of the righteousness of faith,' a layer of regeneration, and a badge of adoption" (p. 380). Not only are the Scriptures silent respecting infant baptism, but every record relating to baptism, forbids its existence in apostolic times, and its right to a subsequent existence."

4 Wesley RE : /// Fourthly. If the Apostles baptized infants, then are they proper subjects of baptism. But the Apostles baptized infants, as is plain from the following consideration: The Jews constantly baptized as well as circumcised all infant proselytes.///

Spurgeon writes : "On the subjects of baptism greater length, and some reference to our worthy author's erring assertions, are requisite. The divinely approved subjects of Christian baptism can be ascertained only from the New Testament. Christ's commission, confirmed as to its import by previous and especially by subsequent practice, and by every reference to this ordinance in the oracles of God, is "the law," and "the testimony." An attempt to prove the rightful subjects of Christian baptism from God's word and Jewish proselyte baptism, is to imitate the Popish appeal to Scripture and tradition. Besides, no man upon earth knows that proselyte baptism had an existence in apostolic times, while every one may know that its origin is "of men," not "from heaven;" and that the Bible alone is man's rule of faith and practice. Every legitimate inference from every part of Holy Writ we admit."

to be continued

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

Wesley Re : /// Lastly. If to baptize infants has been the general practice of the Christian Church in all places and in all ages, then this must have been the practice of the Apostles, and, consequently, the mind of Christ. But to baptize infants has been the general practice of the Christian Church, in all places and in all ages. Of this we have unexceptionable witnesses: St. Austin for the Latin Church, who flourished before the year 400; and Origen for the Greek, born in the second century; both declaring, not only that the whole Church of Christ did then baptize infants, but likewise that they received this practice from the Apostles themselves. (August. de Genesi, 1. 10, c. 23; Orig. in Rom. vi.) St. Cyprian likewise is express for it, and a whole Council with him. (Epist. ad Fidum.) If need were, we might cite likewise Athanasius, Chrysostom, and a cloud of witnesses. Nor is there one instance to be found in all antiquity, of any orthodox Christian who denied baptism to children when brought to be baptized; nor any one of the Fathers, or ancient; writers, for the first eight hundred years at least,///

Spurgeon writes : " Not only are the Scriptures silent respecting infant baptism, but every record relating to baptism, forbids its existence in apostolic times, and its right to a subsequent existence. Nor does Irenaeus, or any of the earliest fathers, say one word favoring the supposition of its existence, notwithstanding the inference that is drawn by some of the Paedobaptists from one passage in Irenaeus. What authority has a practice that can but be proved as possibly beginning to exist at the close of the second, or in the early part of the third century? For Tertullian, dissuading from the baptism of children, may not refer to infants. The existence of infant baptism in the third century is certain. The existence in the third, and in the preceding century, of sentiments on the efficacy of baptism, and of various practices which have no foundation in Holy Writ, is easily and abundantly proved. But neither infant baptism nor any other practice could be sanctioned by evidence of existence in the age immediately succeeding the apostolic period, or existence in apostolic times, if destitute of apostolic sanction; and especially if opposed to, and destructive of, what is divinely enjoined. The fact that inspired writers, in recording baptisms, except where the baptism of parents and other members of the family take place at the same time, say nothing as to parental piety, accords with and corroborates our view of baptism as a personal and voluntary profession and engagement. Every record of baptisms in Holy Writ, and every reference to baptism, is a confirmation of believers' baptism as the "one baptism" for parents and children, for every generation, and for all alike, to the end of time."

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

The baptism of believers, we believe to be a reasonable, scriptural, and profitable service, calculated to strengthen and perpetuate every right feeling and conduct. But in whatever esteem we hold the erring Paedobaptist, and however cordially we say, and hope ever to say, "Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity," we are obliged to think and speak of infant baptism according to a writer before quoted. "In it there is no conscience, no will, no reasonable service. It allies persons without their consent, or even their intelligence, to a religious creed; it forces upon them an unreasoning and unwilling service; it imposes upon them an unconscious profession; it anticipates the conduct of riper years to a degree which both nature and Scripture condemn; and is therefore a violation of their just rights."

J
jochbaptist Mar 31, 2017

Through the years, I noticed some aspects commonly found with people defending, upholding or tolerating the practice of infant baptism.

1. Not truly born again, but religious
2. Not filled with the Holy Spirit, or resisting the leading of the Holy Spirit
3. A source of division where new converts are concerned, or organisational unity is tested
4. Their viewpoint is plainly refuted by scripture, especially by the words of our Lord, and the book of Acts, so they over-complicate the issue
5. This error is seen as a minor issue, but is a foundational error, and should be addressed as such. IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY. - This is not a non-essential issue.
6. No real unity is found in fellowship with them
7. They are bound by, or honours their religious sub-culture above the Lord
8. They are sincerely deceived sometimes
9. Their spiritual growth is stunted

I personally believe that there should be a no tolerance stance taken against this deception by all true believers.

Blessings

S
savannah Mar 31, 2017

Credobaptist John Bunyan, said:

"I will not let water baptism be the rule, the door, the bolt, the bar, or the wall of division between the righteous and the righteous, between Christian and fellow Christian.”


Similarly, a paedobaptist, John Owen (1650) commented:

"Though they (believer baptists) may differ from us in some things of less moment, we are obliged not only to forbear but also to communion with them. For who shall refuse those whom Christ hath received. This and no other is the rule of our evangelical love. To require more is an unwarrantable imposition on their consciences.”

C
Christinyou Mar 31, 2017

What baptism really counts for the born again sons and daughters of God in Christ Jesus?

We are baptized into Christ, His death, His resurrection, His life and His body the Church. We are baptized with and into the Holy Spirit who is this teacher of the Christ that is birthed in us in all our baptisms into Him, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

If somebody wants to be baptized in water to show by knowledge of the above what has happened in them which gives us all that is needed to enter the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, His body the Church, His Bride. Ok... But if the person being baptized and the person doing the baptizing, believes that water baptism saves and gets them into heaven, that must be in the same category of anathema, It is so wrong and they need every person knowing what is happening to pray that they come to the truth, and can see, feel and touch the Three in One God baptized into us and us baptized into them, that is true baptism and is their life anew in Christ and Christ in them as they are in the water, and the water pictured in them.

In Christ: Phillip

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savannah Mar 31, 2017

"...if the person being baptized and the person doing the baptizing, believes that water baptism saves and gets them into heaven.."

Not one on this forum believes that!

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

RE : /// Not one on this forum believes that!///

There are those on this forum whom believe as appears Wesley believed

RE : /// Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.///

That the Born of water is referring to Baptism in water.

"I cannot, as George Fox did, give up baptism and the Lord's Supper, but I would infinitely sooner do it, counting it the smaller mistake of the two than perpetrate and assist in perpetrating the uplifting of baptism and the Lord's Supper out of their proper place." - CH Spurgeon

edit from "as did Wesley" to "as appears Wesley believed"

sermonindex Mar 31, 2017

Matthew 28:18-20

All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, and lo, I am with you, always even to the end of the age.

I doubt very seriously Jesus had in mind the baptism of infants when he gave what we call the Great Commission.

The implication in the above verses is that the disciples are to be made. This implies the disciples are cognizant as they are being taught about Jesus. And thus, when they are baptized, they are making a conscience commitment to Christ and following him in what we call believers baptism.

I do not see that babies or infants are implied in the above verses. The clear teaching of scripture is that those who make a conscience decision to follow Jesus are to be baptized.

bro Blaine

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savannah Mar 31, 2017

Wesley believed that one could lose salvation, so it would not be compatible with baptism guaranteeing one a place in heaven, regardless of what appears to be what he believed.

Again, I don't believe anyone on this forum believes baptism is to be equated with salvation.

S
savannah Mar 31, 2017

The whole of Scripture is written to adults, as I know not one infant who can read.

Yet, I do know of one pre-infant who would defy the reason and logic of all human understanding!

And it came to pass, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe did leap in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41

sermonindex Mar 31, 2017

Luke has left us with a record of how the first century church operated under the direction of the Holy Spirit.  Thus in reading this record, we can gleam who the first recipients of water baptism were.

Acts 2:38

Peter said to them, "Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 9:18

and immediately there fell from his eyes, something like scales, and he received his sight and he got up and was baptized.

Acts 8:35-39

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from the Scriptures he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said,  Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?  And Phillips said." if you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, " I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God..". And he ordered the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water. Philip as well as the eunuch and he baptized him,  when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch no longer saw him but went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 10:46-4T

Then Peter answered. "Surely no one can refuse the water for them to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, Then they asked him to stay on a few days. 

Acts 22:16

Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on his name.

Brethren the above examples out of the book of acts indicate that it was believers in Jesus Christ who were baptized. You would be hard pressed to argue infants in the above texts. To do so will distort the text.

The clear teaching of the New Testament is that believers in Jesus Christ, who make a voluntary commitment to Him, are to be baptized. To argue infant baptism, one must resort to theological gymnastics and distort the text.  

At the risk of being heretical, Mr. Wesley is not correct in arguing for infant baptism. But understand he came out of a Church of England background. This may have colored his perception of the scriptures in reasoning infant baptism.

I might add my own background is Presbyterian. Presbyterians must resort to a complicated covenant theology to include infant baptism. Whereas my Presbyterian brethren are masters of theology. The theology blind stem to the simple truth of scripture. The simple truth of the New Testament is that believers and believers alone are to be baptized.

I believe the Anabaptist got it correct when they realized that it was believers making a voluntary confession of faith to Jesubaptized. Who were to be baptized.

Also in parts of the world where it is dangerous to follow Christ. To choose to be baptized will invite a death sentence. Because to be baptized as a follower of Jesus Christ is an identification that one will stand with him even unto death. Infants are not capable of making such a life and death decision.

To conclude from my own reading of the New Testament. It is believers in Jesus Christ, who make a voluntary commitment to Him. These are to be baptized. Infant baptism is not taught in the New Testament.

Simply my thoughts.

Bro Blaine 

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

RE : /// Again, I don't believe anyone on this forum believes baptism is to be equated with salvation///

Wesely again :

"As to the grounds of it: If infants are guilty of original sin, then they are proper subjects of baptism; seeing, in the ordinary way, they cannot be saved, unless this be washed away by baptism. It has been already proved, that this original stain cleaves to every child of man; and that hereby they are children of wrath, and liable to eternal damnation."


I will let the above speak for itself

As far as : "extraordinary cases do not make void a standing rule."
Where in John 3:5 does it make exception for extraordinary cases ?

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savannah Mar 31, 2017


I am not opposed to adults who are converted to the faith of Jesus Christ and become believers, being baptized.

I am heartily in agreement with the Scriptures on this.

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savannah Mar 31, 2017

I don't believe John 3:5 is a reference to water baptism.

And in the quote from Wesley, nowhere does it make any claim that one gains salvation thereby.

One must read more of Wesley to come to a conclusion.

As I said, he believed that salvation could be lost, so clearly he would not believe that salvation is guaranteed by baptism. Just as he'd not believe in the modern day sinners' prayer guaranteeing one's salvation

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proudpapa Mar 31, 2017

44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

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savannah Mar 31, 2017
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savannah Mar 31, 2017

To clear matters up, here is Wesley from the OP article;

To sum up the evidence: If outward baptism be generally, in an ordinary way, necessary to salvation, and infants may be saved as well as adults, nor ought we to neglect any means of saving them; if our Lord commands such to come, to be brought unto him, and declares, "Of such is the kingdom of heaven;” if infants are capable of making a covenant, or having a covenant made for them by others, being included in Abraham’s covenant, (which was a covenant of faith, an evangelical covenant,) and never excluded by Christ; if they have; a right to be members of the Church, and were accordingly members of the Jewish; if, suppose our Lord had designed to exclude them from baptism, he must have expressly forbidden his Apostles to baptize them, (which none dares to affirm he did,) since otherwise they would do it of course, according to the universal practice of their nation.

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Again, he is not equating salvation with "outward baptism" as he terms it.

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