I have always understood the doctrine of the secret rapture, where believers were snatched away before the 7 year tribulation, originated with J. N. Derby. Then was made popular by C. I. Scofield.
However I have recently heard this doctrine of a snatching away of believers before the tribulation was developed by the Catholic Jesuits. Anyone familiar with this?
Bro Blaine
Hi Bearmaster,
I think this is a loaded question in particular using the terms "developed" and "originated" which are disconcerting to pre trib believers.
We have to discuss our points in relation to whats in the Bible and is it in the Bible or not.
Again their are many great(although none great compares to Christ) Christians who believe in the Post Tribulation and their are many great Christians who believe in the Pre Tribulation,all brothers and sisters in Christ,
Their are downsides to believing in Post Tribulation and their are downsides in believing in Pre Tribulation,their are also upsides,
Yours staff
We are warned in scripture to be aware of deception in the end times. Paul writes to the Thessalonians,
... Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter, as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lowliness lawlessness is revealed the son of destruction who opposes and exalts himself above every socalled God or object of worship so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God...2 Thes. 2:1-4
The scriptures warn as there will be a falling away. That would presuppose people who hold to the truth of Jesus will believe a delusion. Again Paul writes,
... For this reason, God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that all may be judged, who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness...2 Thes. 2:11
I quote the above verses before I post a link to this article below. I believe this article, as well as other articles, I have googled this morning show that the pretrib rapture origins are rooted in the work of the Jesuits.
Bro Blaine
I agree completely staff. Many great christians have believed pre trib, some post trib, some (like Finney) were actually post millenial. I am pre trib myself; I don't think I am under some sort of delusion. Read what Darby and some of his associates, like Anthony Norris Groves, wrote. They were full of the love of Christ; they weren't cult leaders, like some have depicted them.
Brothers respectfully, I disagree. In reading about the origins of the pretrib rapture. Three names cone forward. All Jesuits; Francisco Ribera 1537-
1591, Jesuit doctor of theology. Also Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, a Jesuit scholar, 1543-1621. And finally, Manual de Lacanza, 1731-1802. These 3 men planted the seeds of what we call the pre trib rapture. Later, this teaching was picked up by Edward Irving, J.N. Darby, and C. I. Scofield; all Protestants.
The RCC planted the seeds of the pretrib rapture into the Protestant church. The attempt of the RCC was to take away attention from itself as being the antichrist and its institution.
Link to article below gives further history.
http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/Jesuits.html
Bro Blaine
I believe that one can be genuine and be genuinely wrong. I believe that Darby and Finney would fall into that category in regards to pre-trib. In my mind it takes nothing away from these men to believe that they were wrong. None of us have a perfect doctrine and all of us have something that we believe that will turn out not to be incorrect. Now, some errors are larger than other and have more consequences. If pre-trib teaching has lulled much of the Body into a bed of ease thinking that there is no tribulation to go through, then that error is a dangerous one and should be guarded against.........bro Frank
If pre-trib teaching has lulled much of the Body into a bed of ease thinking that there is no tribulation to go through, then that error is a dangerous one and should be guarded against.........bro Frank
Agreed brother. So agree.
I remember I was in a fellowship where I quoted a scripture. A couple was standing next to me. His young wife remarked that if she were in prison she would want to be next door to me in a jail cell. She said I would encourage her by the word I had stored up in my heart. Her husband remarked to her that she would not have to worry about memorizing scripture. For we were going to be raptured before the tribulation.
I'm afraid comments, such as the above, are all too common in the body of Christ for those who hold to a pre trib rapture. I do believe there are those who hold to this doctrine who are being lulled into a false sense of ease.
Bro Blaine
As the times grow closer to the return of Jesus. We must ask the question, does the New Testament teach 2 comings of Christ?
Those who hold to a pretrib rapture would say that Jesus is coming secretly to take home his bride. Then, after the 7 year tribulation, there will be another appearance of Christ to take home the tribulation saints and to judge the wicked.
Where on earth is this taught in the New Testament? And for that matter, did the early church ever hold to this view?
Matthew 13:36-43New American Standard Bible (NASB)The Tares Explained
36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 He will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears let him hear.
Jesus tells the parable of tares sown among the wheat (Mat. 13:24-30). Then gives the explanation above. Â In the above verses Jesus teaches one coming judgment of the righteous and the wicked. If he were coming to secretly rapture his bride before the tribulation. Would he not have taught it here?Â
Ok. For those  who hold to the pre trib view what am I missing?
Why are the wheat not taken out before the tares? Â A pre tribe rapture model would say pull the wheat up secretly before the final harvest. Leave the tares. Â Then maybe some more wheat who once were tares will grow. Â Then do a final harvest of removing the tares and harvesting hopefully some wheat.Â
As ridiculous as this sounds. This is what a pre trib rapture model would look like in the above parable.
I don't think Jesus held to a pre trib rapture.
Bro BlaineÂ
From christinpropheycy.org
"Jesus stated in Matthew 24:42,44 to "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come… So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” Not only do believers in Christ not know when to expect Him, but the Father Himself seems to have left Jesus out on the exact time His Son is to return. As Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” These and other verses (Mat. 24:36,42,44,50; 25:13; 1 Thes. 4:18; Tit. 2:13; 1 Jn. 2:28; 3:2-3) indicate that Jesus’ arrival will come when nobody expects it.
The Second Coming, on the other hand, is preceded by many events, such as the rise of the Antichrist (Rev. 12:13-17; Zech; 13:7-9), a treaty with Israel (Dan. 9:27), the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple (Mat. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; Rev. 11:1-2), as well as plagues and judgments and persecutions destroying most of the world’s population (Rev. 6-18). The Book of Revelation reports these events as occurring during the 7-year Tribulation, which Revelation reveals precede the Second Coming."
And please also remember, I respect all differing viewpoints on this subject. Keep in mind that we can "understand all mysteries, and all knowledge", yet without love, we are nothing. We must "endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace." Ephesians 4:3.
The more I study Revelation the better I understand the people's lack of understanding of Jesus' birth in Bethlehem and his subsequent ministry and ongoing 'rule' among people.
Blaine, how do you understand the millennium reign? Its beginning and end?
Sandra
An interesting article rebutting Joe Schimmel's "left Behind Or Led Astray" can be read here: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Rebuttal-statement-Left-Behind-or-Led-Astray.pdf
Part of the article debunks the notion that Darby got the idea of the pre trib rapture from Margaret Macdonald. In fact, Darby said Macdonald's utterances were not inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it seems that her utterances supported a post tribulation view.
The dilemma whether to believe either pre or post trib seems to hinge on the weaknesses of the non-preferred view. For decades, I held to one view because I read for all those years the biblical arguments of those who spent most of their time refuting the opposing view. But, I always struggled to swallow the underlying arguments since they stood less on their own bottom than they did on the heap of what they thought they had destroyed in the opposing view.
In time, I determined to look at the textual support for pre and for post on my own. I reached a prayer-soaked conclusion. I have no preference but the truth. God is just no matter how He does what He says He will do. I am thoroughly convinced and I do not need to stand on the ruins of the opposing view. A good, faithful to the Word opposition that is simply wrong is not less in Christ than I am because it is wrong.
The flipside is that for those of us who are post trib believers, as I am, we cannot find peace with the status quo ante and we feel a tremendous burden to persuade and warn of the troubles ahead and even Daniel's 70th week. When we say why we are so burdened, we do not wish to invite the derision and criticism of pre trib believers. But, the swirl of engagement seems always to go to the drain of exchanged attacks on the other side's perceived weaknesses. That is no pathway toward truth.
In the end, it does not matter what Darby believed or when. It matters what the bible reveals. If Darby is truly consistent with biblical revelation, then good on Darby even if Margaret MacDonald was a catalyst for that and even if Darby was the first man to understand the reality of things eschatological this side of the apostles. But, if Darby is not congruent with the Bible, then poor Darby. He then joins the long list of people who have been wrong and who never in the first place stood to ask to be the standard of truth.
Many that have studied the pre-trib view believe that many beliefs that have grown up around and accompany the pre-trib view are as much in need of further discussion as the pre-trib view itself.
1) Everyone saved during the tribulation will never be part of the church since the church will have been taken and vanished. Tribulation saints will be saved through faith and the blood of Christ but nonetheless will never be part of the church.
2) Believers who have come to faith during the tribulation will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. This raises a legitimate issue if one can be born again without being indwelt by the Spirit.
3) Many pre-trib advocates propose Israel will be placed back under a system of law and will be required to be saved in this "Old Testament manner" during the tribulation since the age of grace will have closed.
4) Many parts of the NT will not be relevant for tribulation believers since major parts of the NT are for the church only.
5) The Day of the Lord will he seven years long instead of occurring at the end of the tribulation.
Many pre-trib believers are not even aware of these views that have grown up around and accompany their view.
Hi docs.
1. I don't hold to the view that Tribulation saints are not part of the church. Even Old Testament believers are part of the church and were born again the same way we are today and will be during the Tribulation.
2. Everyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ and is born again is indwelt by the Holy Spirit; again, even in the Old Testament it was so.
3 and 4. What are they supposed to believe then? Even in the Old Testament times, law could not save you, so it can't during the Tribulation.
5. The Day of the Lord is just that; it's a one time event where God takes the saints to be with Him, not a seven year period.
Also, I hear people say that you have to infer the pre tribulation rapture in scripture, but you also have to do that with the doctrine of the Trinity. Many cults will deny the Trinity because that word is not in scripture, you have to carefully study the scriptures and ask God for illumination.
Hi Dolfan,
Your Qoute>
In time, I determined to look at the textual support for pre and for post on my own. I reached a prayer-soaked conclusion. I have no preference but the truth. God is just no matter how He does what He says He will do. I am thoroughly convinced and I do not need to stand on the ruins of the opposing view. A good, faithful to the Word opposition that is simply wrong is not less in Christ than I am because it is wrong.
The flipside is that for those of us who are post trib believers, as I am, we cannot find peace with the status quo ante and we feel a tremendous burden to persuade and warn of the troubles ahead and even Daniel's 70th week. When we say why we are so burdened, we do not wish to invite the derision and criticism of pre trib believers. But, the swirl of engagement seems always to go to the drain of exchanged attacks on the other side's perceived weaknesses. That is no pathway toward truth.
In the end, it does not matter what Darby believed or when. It matters what the bible reveals. If Darby is truly consistent with biblical revelation, then good on Darby even if Margaret MacDonald was a catalyst for that and even if Darby was the first man to understand the reality of things eschatological this side of the apostles. But, if Darby is not congruent with the Bible, then poor Darby. He then joins the long list of people who have been wrong and who never in the first place stood to ask to be the standard of truth.
Hi Dolfan I think your comments are fair about Darby .If they are consistant with the bible good and if not poor.Many pre tribbers also have a deep concern for those going to go through the tribulation not because of Christians going through this time but because they have a love for the lost and the unsaved and want to warn them of the time ahead.
Rememeber a preacher called Barry Smith he was mid tribber which is really a form of pre trib and definitely a non post tribber and he went around warning people of the 7 years ahead,yours staff
...Jesus told His disciples that in this world we would have tribulation, some greater than others.
Paul said that the tribulation he goes through on earth doesn't begin to compare with the glory to be revealed when Christ returns for His people.
When writing to the Thessalonians, Paul keeps emphasizing that the Day of the Lord is to be a source of comfort for Christians, a culmination of the good things promised by Jesus; that that Day had not yet come (in their time), that it would come as a thief in the night, that the man of sin (lawlessness) would be revealed. It would be a time of great delusion in the world, however not for true believers.The delusion is for those who found no place in their hearts to believe the truth and be saved. Paul then again reminds them that they were chosen by God for salvation through sanctification by the Holy Spirit and faith in the truth
...in summary, it doesn't really matter what tribulation we go through, small or great, the truth is, we are going THROUGH and coming out on the other side into the glory that Christ has promised to all who believe and continue to believe in Him.
Blessings,
Probably one way of looking at this is God does not save us "from' the tribulation. But He saves us "through" the tribulation. The Israelites in Egypt are a good example of God saving His people through the tribulation.
I have heard those who defend the pretrib rapture, saying that certainly God would not want His people to go through His wrath. And then they quote the verse that says God is not destined us for wrath but for salvation in Jesus Christ.
But the distinction needs to be made between the judgments of God upon the earth and persecution. I believe God will save His remnant church during the judgments that are mentioned in Revelation. Just as he saved his Old Testament, people during the judgments he brought against Egypt during the time of Moses.
However, the church or I should say the remnant bride is not spared from persecution. Persecution has been an ongoing reality of the believing church since the time of Christ. That is why the doctrine of a pre trib rapture is not taught in places like North Korea. For those believers would say we are in tribulation.
As I go through the New Testament, it seems the message is that God will save his people "through" tribulation. But He will not save them "from" tribulation.
I want to thank all who are contributing on this thread. And the spirit exhibited here.
I apologize, I cannot respond to your post individually. But your comments are are causing me to think through this issue. And I believe this issye is something we will need to think through grow closer to the time of His return.
As usual simply my thoughts.
Bro Blaine
by staff
Rememeber a preacher called Barry Smith he was mid tribber WHICH IS REALLY A FORM OF PRE TRIB (emphasis Lisa's) and definitely a non post tribber and he went around warning people of the 7 years ahead,yours staff
I couldn't handle it, I thought it was impossible and I read and reread the Scriptures. But in the mean time of not being able to base jump right into post-tribulation, I found mid-trib and settled there for about 6 mos to a year while still studying the Scriptures. But my personal point is that mid-trib was my exodus and first step toward post-trib while the dust settled in my mind and heart.
Edit: Well, after rereading this, your statement could very well be true!! Mid-trib can be a form a pre-trib because I no longer believed the pre-trib was correct but was afraid to leave the belief I had held for years.
God bless,
Lisa
I couldn't handle it, I thought it was impossible and I read and reread the Scriptures.
I really do not find anything useful in the post or pre trib arguments. I think I am post trib because I see all the scriptures pointing to that. I have no trouble believing it. I have already faced enough persecution for my faith. The feeling of being hated by your loved ones for your faith is far bitter than any physical suffering. I think all this are again great debate in west where prosperity is making it difficult for them to accept any persecution.
Many Pre Trib believers, though they acknowledge that there is no scriptural backing for their belief, they still hold on to it because it is difficult for them to believe otherwise.
This discussion is locked.
