sermonindex
May 24, 2017
Bro Blaine
Blaine brother,
Have you seen this video? Just found it today!!! Wow
John MacArthur vs Zac Poonen on the topic of the rapture
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhRzCqmFQNc
Tell me what you think!!! :) {edit}I like how he put the two views side by side. I do not know if I would go as far as saying John is deceived. To be honest, I lean that way because of his other stances but to out right say it, I can't. But again, I like the two views side by side.
God bless,
Lisa
Sister I watched the video of J MacArthur and Z Poonen discussing the pre-trib rapture. By far our brother Zac Poonen has the better argument in that it is based on scripture. All John MacArthur could do was give extrapolation based on theory. What scripture he did share was taken out of context. This is my observation.
If the teaching of the pre-trib rapture is correct. Then would not Paul Washer have said in the preceding video that we "would be raptured out". And that the church in America would "not undergo persecution".
I agree with our brother Zac poonen. The Rapture is a comfortable doctrine in that it provides comfort for believers to be free from persecution. It is a doctrine that does not preach the demands of the cross of Jesus Christ. Ultimately it is a doctrine that will lead many to the gates of hell.
Again simply my thoughts sister.
Bro Blaine
I love John Macarthur but I disagree with him on this view, Why did it not happen in the first century? During the time of Paul?
it is so sad he does not reference the scriptures once when referencing his arguments or out of context scripture as he is such a good bible study on every other subject
I agree
I am leaven in my church because i believe differently
To me I have been thinking that the Antichrist could simply have a demonic rapture in which the Antichrist proclaims himself as Christ, there is a thing called Project Bluebeam I do not know whether it is fake or true it may be fake in which Jesus or Buddha and other things are projected onto the sky and some people are taken up in spaceships, then the projected images all merge into one to form the Antichrist.
To me my problem is that people looking for Christ may get the Anti-Christ.
this is only conjuncture and should not be taken seriously as my pre tribulation brethren would not fall for this ruse anyway. As not all pre trib people would.
Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
My clincher has always been is that the only Christs that are coming before Jesus are false messiahs as it says so in scripture as the lightning comes out of the east unto the west that is not a silent coming.
Another problem has been with my pre tribulation brethren has been why read from Revelation 6 to 20 if it is not for you.
It is like I have been stunted in theology. it always seems to be glossed over. I want so much to learn more, it is almost like a disconnect between learning about 1066 then realising that the Archaeology is quite different to what I have studied.
Not taking the book of Revelation as future history. it is the same analogy that I find looking at 1066 when looking at Revelation.
Concern for Israel when the Jews are going to go through a worse holocaust than the holocaust during the time of tribulation when the church will not be there to help them.
To me it seems funny with these so called maps of the future with neon lights saying we are now entering into the tribulation or there are the two witnesses with labels on them or we are now entering into the millennium time period.
History is alot more messier than we think and thinking that we have a cut and dried approach to are theology is damaging, I love my pre tribulation brethren as I was formally one myself and I love my brethren!
Dom
by bearmaster
Why would our brother not simply say we would be raptured out???Bro Blaine
Not many come out against pre-trib without a great loss for going against the established rule and reign of that belief. Paul has his other ministries to think about.
Just my opinion!!! :)
I’m heartbroken by this brother. Truly. I am at a loss for why there is such a gross mis-characterization of the rapture doctrine on this site. It has been so misunderstood and demonized needlessly.
I have come across thousands of Christians who hold to the rapture doctrine and I have rarely ever heard any of them use it as an excuse to teach that the Church will not suffer persecution. If I do, I reprove them on the spot, because it is completely unscriptural to think that the Church is not going to suffer because of the belief in the immanent return of Christ.
Jesus promised we would suffer persecution!
If there are teachers teaching falsely that the rapture promises escape from persecution then that is error and should not be received.
I really do believe you may want to reconsider your statement brother. To say the rapture doctrine is leading your brothers and sisters to the gates of hell…so sad and breaks the heart of Jesus who bought and purchased His Church.
Brother, no one is forcing you to believe in the rapture. Please, by the mercies of God cease fire on your brethren!
Most sincerely,
___it is so sad he does not reference the scriptures once when referencing his arguments or out of context scripture as he is such a good bible study on every other subject___
Brother it may be that John MacArthur knows there are no scriptures that defend the pre-trib rapture. Thus with no clear-cut scriptures he must resort to extrapolation and logic. None of which are based in Scripture.
Again this is only my guess. And I speak as one that was weaned on the teaching of John MacArthur in the early days of my walk with Christ. Indeed it is sad to see that he cannot come up with scriptures to establish the pre-trib rapture or the show the cessation of certain spiritual gifts in this day and age.
I find it ironic that John MacArthur keeps the company of RC Sproul and Steve Lawson. As they hold Reformation conferences they will always utter the cry of sola scriptura. Yet on certain doctrines, John MacArthur will appeal to logic reasoning, in absence of certain scripture to support his doctrinal position.
Again simply my thoughts.
Bro Blaine
___I cannot speak for Brother Paul on this matter but I personally believe he left it out for a reason.___
Maybe he left it out sister because it's not found in the Bible.😊
Bro Blaine
___I really do believe you may want to reconsider your statement brother. To say the rapture doctrine is leading your brothers and sisters to the gates of hell…so sad and breaks the heart of Jesus who bought and purchased His Church.___
Brother please consider what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:9-10,
___ They will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time "many will fall away" and will betray one another and hate one another.___
Brother many are going to fall away in the tribulation. This presupposes that there are those who have had a commitment to Jesus. But yet when the suffering and the persecution occurs. They fall away. Reason being because they have believed in the false teaching that they will be taken out of the persecution before it actually happens.
The American church is not teaching the cross of Christ. They teach it as regards salvation. But the American church does not teach the cross as regards that we are to take it up and die to self and be prepared to enter into the sufferings of Jesus. In other words be prepared to be persecuted.
We want the benefits of the cross. But we do not want the demands of the cross. And because we do not want the demands of the cross we do not enter into the maturity and the depth that Jesus requires of us.
In Matthew 13 Jesus speaks of the seed that fell on shallow ground. It fell on rocky places. Because it had no depth of soil to seed quickly sprang up. But when the sun came out the seed was scorched and it died or witheted away (Mat.13:5-6). Jesus interpreted this seed as the one who hears the word and receives it with joy. But when affliction or persecution arises because of the word this person falls away. He is only a temporary believer. He has no root in Jesus. This person has not grown (Mat.13:20-22).
The teaching of a pre-trib rapture does not engender growth. It creates a false comfort that one will be taken out and not grow through the fires of persecution or affliction. It does not encourage one to go deeper in Jesus. It does not encourage one to be rooted and grounded in Christ to endure the fires of persecution. The pre-trib rapture does not encourage one to take up their cross to follow Jesus. The pre-trib rapture teaches that one will escape persecution.
Jesus taught in John 16:33,
___ These things I have spoken to you, so that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage, I have overcome the world.
And again in Acts 14:22, Paul and Barnabas taught,
___ Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.___
They did this in the context of strengthening the souls of the disciples encouraging them to continue in the faith.
To the best of my understanding the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture is not taught in the persecuted Church. It is not taught in those nations where believers live under the reality of persecution day by day knowing that this day could be their last day on earth.
What our persecuted brothers and sisters are taught is the cross. They are taught to take up their cross in to enter into the sufferings of Christ. They are taught to die to themselves so that Jesus will live in them. And they are taught that there is the ultimate hope of glory of Christ living in them. The persecuted church does see the ultimate return of Jesus is coming at the end of tribulation. Thus they see the final outcome. They have read the last chapter in the Book. And it is the Holy Spirit that gives them confidence that Christ will ultimately be their blessed hope. But it will not be the blessed hope of being delivered from persecution. But rather that Jesus Christ will be their hope in the midst of persecution. And ultimately our persecuted brethren will know that if they suffer with Jesus then they will one day reign with Jesus.
There must be a cross before there can be a crown. The pre-trib rapture does not teach this. But the New Testament does teach the sufferings and the ultimate reigning with Christ.
Brother if we do not get a hold of the cross and realize that in the cross there will be suffering and tribulation. If we believe that we are going to be spared from this. Then ultimately we are believing in a doctrine of demons that could very well send us to hell. The pre-trib Rapture teaches and escape from persecution. That is why many will fall away in the end times period
These are simply my thoughts. This is why I must sound a warning in this forum. I realized that to do so will invite the reproach of many. It is not my intention to open fire on those who hold to a pre-trib rapture. But to point out the dangers that holding to this doctrine will certainly lead one to fall away when they realize that persecution is coming. And that Jesus did not come to save them from persecution. But He came to save us through persecution. Abd to have the uktimate hope of His soon return at the end of the age.
Again simply my thoughts.
Bro Blaine
Forget the whole "it creates a false comfort" etc. Those reasons are irrelevant. IS IT TRUTH?? Whether a doctrine leads to good or bad is secondary, those are merely the fruits that point towards it's validity. Let's forgo those and look at the meat of the matter, is it true according to Christ and the scriptures or is a doctrine invented by man?
I said this in another forum and I'll say it again. If you were born on a deserted island with only a bible and no outside influence from any other Christian or church would you really, from the scriptures, come to the conclusion that there is a pre second (a first second) before the second (second second?) coming of Christ? I mean really people, none of you came to that conclusion. You heard it from someone and then you "saw it".
I would like to add, if it is a false teaching how could it be anything other than dangerous? Since when is harboring a lie okay "God will bring them out?" Jesus suffered no false teaching from the "church of His day. To hold onto a lie, even though you are well meaning, only opens doors towards further untruth and away from He who Is TRUTH.
by bearmaster
___I cannot speak for Brother Paul on this matter but I personally believe he left it out for a reason.___Maybe he left it out sister because it's not found in the Bible.😊
Even Art Katz didn't believe in an imminent return of Christ. I was listening to him this morning and at 14:00 minute mark in Part 2 of 2, he states that. But I'd listen to the whole thing, he was younger then too.
Eternal Hell (2 of 2) by Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=21804&commentView=itemComments
Here's the first part as well...
Eternal Hell (1 of 2) by Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=21803&commentView=itemComments
Thank you for sharing your heart and thoughts on this brother. I really do appreciate your love for the Lord Jesus and your unoffendedness towards His cross!
With His Love,
Brother likewise I appreciate your heart love for Jesus. My concerns about the pre-trib rapture we're not directed toward saints such as you. You seem to have have an idea of what's going to happen. And seek the warn those in love.
Irrregardless of the timing of the rapture. We do agree He is coming soon. And we must be prepared to meet Him. As such may we be occupied with the concerns of His kingdom. And that ultimately is the salvation of souls.
Your brother in Christ.
Blaine
by deltadom
Concern for Israel when the Jews are going to go through a worse holocaust than the holocaust during the time of tribulation when the church will not be there to help them.
Over the last few years, I've asked my pre-trib friends why the tree that we are grafted into would be left behind and the answers are unanimously that they killed Jesus and rejected Him.This has bothered me so that I've called that belief anti-Semitic... but Christians don't like that word.
I have a question, can one really love the Jewish people and believe in a pre-tribulation rapture of the church? My personal belief is no but what do you think, Dom?
"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:23-27
Lisa said: "Over the last few years, I've asked my pre-trib friends why the tree that we are grafted into would be left behind and the answers are unanimously that they killed Jesus and rejected Him."
I am pre trib and I love the Jewish people. My pastor is pre trib and he loves the Jewish people. He just came back from a conference in Israel, as a matter of fact.
by drifter
I am pre trib and I love the Jewish people. My pastor is pre trib and he loves the Jewish people. He just came back from a conference in Israel, as a matter of fact.
What is your belief about why Israel shall be left behind?
Hi ThyKingdomCome,
I couldnt agree more with everything that you have said as I have debated on numerous of these threads.
1.Mis-characterization of the rapture doctrine
2.I have never seen the rapture as an excuse that we will not suffer persecution
3.We are all brethren and this needs to be kept into account.
I just think its being intellectually dishonest to link the pre trib rapture to believing in no persecution and its being done over and over and over.
We only see in part looking through a dimly lit glass,
yours staff
Hi Lysa,
You can certainly love the Jewish people and believe in the pre trib rapture,no problem non at all,
Yours staff
Hi,
I would say in my opinion that SI members or alot of them have an unhealthy almost morbid obsession with persecution.
Go out to Syria or Eygpt or China,why wait for it to come to the west if its that important,yours staff
__^I would say in my opinion that SI members or alot of them have an unhealthy almost morbid obsession with persecution.
Go out to Syria or Eygpt or China,why wait for it to come to the west if its that important,yours staff___
So are you going to send an email to Paul Washer suggesting he do this? After all it was he who gave a prophetic word of persecution coming upon Anerica.
Bro Blaine
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