a humble response? i hope

this is kind of in response to a few of the posts about end times, atonement, cern, those kind of posts.

but first, a few verses to lay the foundation
1 Cor. 4:1-8 (nasb)

4 Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God. 6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 7 For who regards you as superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 8 You are already filled, you have already become rich, you have become kings without us; and indeed, I wish that you had become kings so that we also might reign with you.

vs. 5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

then 6.
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

are verses that seem to be often overlooked or not even taken into consideration for a lot of what goes on in our forums. christianity has produced hours and hours of reading and arguing about the recent posts about the end times, views of atonement, and 'cern'.

now what i put fourth will be a challenge, but i also hope that some of what will be said will bring a different perspective and we can learn from these things. and remember,' there is nothing new under the sun.'

end times:
i have read a lot of what is posted about this issue, and seen many people attack each other. etc, etc.
i dont think im going beyond scripture here. but. i chose to believe in the pan out eschatology. i only learned about it a few years ago. and ever since i learned about it, i have found more time to spend time in prayer and worshiping the Christ and His reign instead of wasting my time in debating or what people do on this forum about end times. i have found that believing in this view frees me up to spread the gospel and learning to serve the lost as Christ says too. the pan out theology is simply this. it will pan out when He gets here and it doesnt matter if i suffer in the 'tribulation' or not, because thats all that matters to me, HIS RETURN! His will is GOOD! ITS PERFECT! seeing everyone suffer or not, quite frankly (as harsh as it sounds) doesnt matter because HE WILL COME BACK AND HAVE HIS PERFECT REIGN and his return doesnt take what we believe into consideration. His return is and was meant to happen whether people like it or not. whether it fits into what they believe or not believe. ALL HAIL the coming MESSIAH!
come quickly Lord.

'differing views of the atonement':
much like Calvinism and Arminianism, the bible teaches both. the bible teaches all the views of the atonement too. right views or wrong, it's not going to matter. i was in a class one time, and the bible professor that taught the new testament for over 50 years, sounded very Calvinistic. i went to him after class and said, today sounded very calvinistic. he smiled, and with the most tender voice i have ever heard, i dont teach doctrines of man, i teach doctrines of God, and what his book says and teaches. then he smiled and i left feeling rebuked, because i was trying to put the work of God into the categorical understanding through mans doctrines, when in fact, God's word and teachings trump mans thoughts and understanding. so i have come to the understanding that the bible can back any teaching up, why do you think theres so many cults that use scriptures.

cern, conspiracies, different universes, aliens, etc.
i have come to learn that talking about these things are extensive too. much like other theologies. i have come to realize that talking about these things are a measurement of spiritual maturity. like yes, ill talk a little bit about these things, but i wont spend hours, or as many posts on these forums have given. sure people can talk about it, but when people start to turn on each other, then thats when talking about it becomes dangerous and the maturity levels show and some may seem mature and 'try to defend' but in fact, their just as immature as the brothers that start the talks, or at least appear that way. this takes away from glorifying the coming King. from praying for His return.

theres so much that can be done instead of speculating these issues that have been talked about for, ever it seems.

loving the Lord God with all your heart, mind, spirit. Loving your neighbor as yourself. Loving justice and mercy, walking humbly with your Lord. this is a lot. i think if these are done properly, we wouldn't have time to waste talking about theologies or even asking rhetorical questions. since this site is revival. shouldnt that be the focus of the forums. to post prayers or moments of enlightenment from the sermons? how we have been blessed? how Christ and God has been magnified in our lives? or is that all to dull that wed rather talk about cern, end times etc?

one last verse,
2 Cor. 10:5 (nasb)
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ

i fear sometimes theology becomes speculation. cern/conspiracies are clearly speculation.

but then again, i could be wrong.

but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts

Daniel: Welcome to SI, by the way. My grandmother was originally from Saskatoon, so I guess I have some Canadian roots in my tree as well.

Great post brother, and spot on in my opinion. Not that discussing what we believe about these topics is wrong, but we can get our focus so messed up in these things.

I once met a brother at work who seemed excited to hear that I was a fellow believer. We talked briefly about our experiences in Christ, and it seemed good. But within five minutes of meeting me, this brother wanted to know my position on the rapture. When he learned that my mind was not made up one way or the other, my position was totally unacceptable to him, and for the next half hour he tried to convince me of my error. He even got emotionally upset at me when I tried to explain that i was OK in my own heart about not having my mind made up on this issue.

I think what you said brings the right focus to these things

Blessings brother.

Well said brother Daniel!

It's a shame that anyone who claims the name of Christ should act this way, much less to another believer publicly!

I have discovered that we as human beings have the most amazing powers of rationale.... I mean we can rationalize and justify pretty much anything we want to do.
But when our Lord splits the sky and the end is upon us, most of us are gonna wish we had loved instead of rationalized and "esteemed others as greater than ourselves" rather than disrespecting them so carelessly. We can disagree without being disrespectful.

It seems not many people fear the Lord anymore, at least not as much as we fear not winning the argument,...

In any case, your post is much appreciated and Lord willing we will all take heed to the humble wisdom therein.

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

since this site is revival. shouldnt that be the focus of the forums. to post prayers or moments of enlightenment from the sermons? how we have been blessed? how Christ and God has been magnified in our lives? or is that all to dull that wed rather talk about cern, end times etc?

Should remember that... even when we meet in person with other believers!

/the Church has produced hours and hours of reading and arguing about the recent post about the end times, views of the atonement and 'cern./

Personally. I have a very definite interest in eschatology and have come to see that is a somewhat large deficit in the modern church. Also, issues such as whether the Church will be here or not during the end times is a issue with very large implications for all believers today. It's inevitable at this point that debate, perhaps heated debate, will take place as this is hashed out. Eschatology is not near as hard to understand in spite of many folks believing it is because they have been taught it is basically non-understandable. If the troops at D Day knew they would soon be landing and storming the beaches wouldn't they be talking about it among themselves? The Church may well soon find itself to be facing the end times and its final events so why shouldn't they be talking of it and trying to understand it even down to as many details as possible? For the Church to believe it will all pan out as has been said so why worry about it is perhaps the most unbiblical of all the end time teachings. I say that respectfully and feel I may be grinding a bit against the irenic spirit of your post. But it will all pan out in a way relieves one of the task of diligently doing their homework to come to a more biblical frame of reference and understanding. Trusting what others say (since you can't understand the end time just be ready) they neglect to exercise the priesthood of every believer and take a look for themselves which requires time and effort. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, to search out a matter is the glory of kings" (Proverbs 25:2). Personally, I've also never lost prayer or worship time while looking into eschatology.

I posted the OP in the views of the atonement subject. I saw no arguing and debating in the replies but rather people just shared a bit about their own views without arguing. I am going to be sharing in a upcoming men's class about the atonement and found these views about the atonement and thought I would share them. I don't how a somewhat small thread about the atonement that had no debate or arguing should cause any problems. I just thought I would mention it. The different views are fascinating and the small bit of replies were harmless and informative.

Thank you and blessings to you.

i understand what your saying.

i hope your patient with me as i try to explain a few things.

i want to share a quick story before i go on.

i attended a church service they have kind of geared towards the younger generation (of which i fall under) and i was finally excited for the sermon that was preached this night. (btw, the sermons are usually pretty horrible, promoting money, self, those kind of things) the pastor taught "Premillennialism" (which some people push against, some people embrace, etc. which is fine) i was surprised that a church like this preached something like this. so i sat on the edge of my seat and my heart pounded when the reality of the King coming was emphasized over and over. yet, when it was all over. it was like the sermon went above everyone's head. it sounded hollow in the auditorium, it felt like the sermon landed on deaf ears. i kind of stood up clapping and then sat back down as people looked at me weird. i wanted to jump with joy to share this experience with others, but everyone kind of sluffed it off. like, they werent excited.

so in a way your right that the church lacks this knowledge.

another thing i wanted to mention, was how you have a definite interest in eschatology.

i just wanted to kind of draw out the idea that as mature as you are, you could be drawn to God and worship, but some, that are weaker can be like those brothers that had to convince another brother that they had to have their same view. and the weaker ones tend to be caught up on this and not be able to share the same joys you do.

now, to say 'pan out' is unbiblical, you could be right. but, we have to remember, that jesus, paul, peter, (maybe john) doesnt teach us to study Premillennialism, Postmillennialism, Amillennialism. (instead study scripture) because those are just ways to understand the scriptures that enforce those teachings. thats how we as humans understand eschatology, more or less semantics. but there are scriptures that back up those ideas. and there are enough scriptures that back up a 'pan out theology'. there are scriptures that are probably used to prove those other theologies right too.

for example, we have the following verses.

Acts 1:6-11
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
The Ascension

9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into [h]the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

interestingly enough, the Lord replies to his return, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;" and i think thats His response on when He will return. (i could be wrong)

the two men said He will come back the same way He left.

"Like a thief in the night"

"I am coming quickly"

then if we look at the parable of the 10 virgins. when the bridegroom returned, the brides werent talking about His return, they were asleep.

yeah, theres more verses to say that there are things that will happen or signs, but thats been happening since He left. and he was quite clear at the end of gospels on what to do. which i tried to echo in a different way. at the end of the gospels (specifically matthew) He gave us the great commission. i think if were caught up in fulfilling that wed have no time to discuss these things, or at least have conversations that bear no fruit. when i mentioned that were to love our God with all our hearts, mind, spirit, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. to do justice, love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God because the last part comes from Micah 6:8 and it is clear that is what the Lord requires. isnt that a lot already? more than we need? so its not like im just sitting there staring at a wall waiting for the coming Messiah. because i heard many pastors say, 'its not good theology if its not practical'. (if i were to compare that to the other eschaton's then theres not much practical uses other than worrying, trying to be right, praying, or maybe, to do what I was just talking about?)but there is enough scripture to prove that a pan out theology is biblical.

and yea, i wasnt saying anything was wrong with the atonement post, i was pretty surprised actually that no one got all antsy in the pantsy by each others views. i guess i failed in trying to explain myself.

what i was trying to get at, is that the bible teaches all of those views. i think we know that the bible teaches a lot of things. thats why i mentioned there is nothing new under the sun. everything has been written about. theres no new ideas, or perspectives. its all been said. and what i was trying to say, is that the bible will prove what you want to say. thats why i mentioned cults and their success briefly. they can use the bible to get what they want too, have their own twisted views etc. i was just saying that the bible is so inexhaustible that it teaches all things. whether a person is right or wrong, meh, im not going to get into that. (right now anyways :P)

but one quote i heard and made things simpler for me,
well, the one i mentioned about "good theology is practical", and 'theology should be treated like wine, the older the better'.

but yeah, i was actually encouraged by that post. i just wanted to state my opinion.