CAN ANYONE SOLVE THIS MYSTERY?

In 3 distinct passages in the New Testament God makes it very clear that those who commit the act of sodomy cannot go to heaven unless they repent and stop doing it.

The world says: "Those passages are not culturally relative to our modern society, sodomy is OK".

The Church agrees with God and rejects the world's philosophy.

Yet...

In 5 distinct passages in the New Testament, God makes it very clear that He wants His children to greet one another with a holy kiss.

The world says: "If a man kisses another man or shows any kind of affection to him, he is a sodomite at heart."

The Church agrees with the world and rejects God's admonition as culturally irrelative.

Why are you insisting that people in the American church go around kissing on each other?

In America folks shake hands or give a hug if they know the person a little better to greet them.

In the Middle East and the Mediterranean area in Paul's day a kiss on the cheek was an accepted greeting. So that is why Paul said to greet each other this way. If this had not already been a custom, Paul would not have commended cheek kissing.

If handshaking was the cultural norm back then in that locale, he would have said "greet each other with a holy handshake."

It's a mystery alright.

Greeting each other with a holy kiss is the same in our cultural as shaking hands. Look in the Middle East and the practice this kissing. They kiss one cheek and then the other and then back to the original and end..............it is just like shaking hands. It isn't mouth to mouth and it isn't sexual. Don't allow your itchy ears to redefine this so as to make homosexuality promoted in the bible.

Quote by op: "God's admonition"

How can op be accused of anything? His logic is sound. If the bible is the infallible 100% literal word of God right down to every jot and tittle then he is right. We are picking and choosing. His confusion on this matter is a natural result of being taught a wrong understanding of the bible. If this was merely cultural and not important now then there are parts of the bible that were written for the people to whom they were actually addressed (what a "duh" statement) and not for us 2000 years in the future. Of course they are profitable for study, teaching, rebuking etc because they were written in the Spirit. Our (protestant) perspective of scripture is warped and it leads to this confused warped way of thinking.

John- I don't believe the OP is saying the Bible condones homosexuality.

He is saying on one hand the Church ignores plain statements about homosexuality in the NT by being permissive, i.e. Being tolerant of homosexuality.

Then the church at least in the US does not practice the holy kiss of men v men because of a perceived stigma of homosexuality of man kissing.

So on the one hand, he argues, the church could care less about homosexuality and on the other is so freaked out by it that it does not practice what he seems to be saying is a NT command for all christians everywhere- the holy kiss.

I just think his premise is wrong that the holy kiss is a command.

Brothers, do you realize what you are affirming here? By your argument that a hand shake is the cultural equivalent to a kiss, you are declaring that the Bible is not the Word of God to be taken literally for all generations, but that it is to be applied based on the culture that it is introduced to and not as it is written. The LGBT crowd is using YOUR SAME LOGIC to affirm that God is OK with sodomy.

They are saying things like: "If same sex union was the cultural norm back then in that locale, he would have said ‘Husbands love your husbands and/or wives’ "

DEADn, you use the term "homosexuality” because that is the term you were taught. It was coined in the late 1800s. It has come to convey the idea that some people are "wired” to erotically love men as women which is a lie from hell. God created nobody with inclinations to a certain sin. Man falls for the temptation to sin and then he gets addicted to that sin. Until he is set free by Jesus he remains addicted.

The Bible condemns sodomy (sexual activity between members of the same sex). Eternity in hell is the consequence if there is no genuine repentance. The Bible calls kissing between members of the same sex holy. It also holds in high esteem embracing. Intimate physical affection between members of the same sex (as is common in the Middle East) is never condemned in the Bible. It is presented as a good thing.

Our society has built an ideology that people are either "gay” or "straight” (homo or hetero) which goes against the teaching of the Bible. What the Bible calls good (men embracing, leaning the head on the breast of another, kissing) our corrupt society calls these holy and innocent things "gay” associating them with the sin of sodomy.

IS GOD RIGHT, OR IS OUR SOCIETY RIGHT?

Many boys grow up in our society without the love and affection of a father figure in their lives. Many have good fathers, but they reach a certain age and Daddy will not touch them in any affectionate way because our society has declared it gay EVIL. God created men and designed us to give and receive physical affection from each other. His Word affirms it. He designed men to give and receive affection and sexual stimulation from women.

Satan has "pulled the wool” over the eyes of the church and we go along with our society’s definitions that any physical affection between men is to be associated with sodomy. The only time it is acceptable in our society is at the end of a big sporting event. Since we have made what God calls holy and innocent something vile and we have accepted society’s definitions there are many men and boys who never got much affection from other men and end up craving, not sodomy but natural innocent holy man to man affection. Because of society’s redefining of things (and the church’s acceptance of the redefinitions) such men and boys assume that they are "gay” and end up falling into that trap.

And the devil is laughing at us!

In Kenya, Africa, as well as other parts of the continent, it is not so strange to see two men talking to one another or walking holding hands. It seems strange to us, but it is simply a cultural norm that indicates a bond of friendship, nothing more. We see this in America often when two little girls do the same thing. The problem is that we have become so perverse as a society that we focus on things sexual. The kiss was a cultural norm that is practiced to this day in many other parts of the world. Recall the kiss on the cheek that you might see in Greece, France, etc. between people who are friends and meet. I agree that this admonition might, in our culture, be something akin to, "Greet each other with a warm hug around the neck." No more, no less.

Lorddoitagain: Brothers, do you realize what you are affirming here? By your argument that a hand shake is the cultural equivalent to a kiss, you are declaring that the Bible is not the Word of God to be taken literally for all generations,

Brother you yourself do not take the bible literally. The new testament is LITERALLY a collection of letters written to the early church. The part of the "holy kiss" was LITERALLY written nearly 2000 years ago in a completely different time and place to incompletely set of different believers. You very UNLITERALLY take this very small thing written to those long gone and make it this grand law that must be followed to a tee and those who don't are not walking in truth.

You do not realize the full scope of time that has passed. 2000 years is a LONG time. The practice of the holy kiss fell out many many many years ago. Time does that, it just happens. God is not angry at us for that and it is not our responsibility to bring that back. The early church kissed. Paul wrote that to the early church. What does that have to do with Me? You can still learn from it (brotherly love, etc.) But it is not a command for you today, that is just silly

Martyr,

With your logic and view of the scripture, sodomy would be perfectly OK. 2000 years have passed man! This is 2017. "The practice of sex only between male and female fell out many many many years ago."

Nope. Christ is still the same and He is order, more exactly he is the order of all creation and in that order it is male and female. Don't even need a bible to know that just need to look around and see the order that has been established. Many cultures even before the bible disproved of homosexuality. It is not a christian concept it is a Christ concept (again he is the order of all things, not a book)

Martyr,

I was under the impression that most of the people on this forum believed that the Bible is the Word of God. If you don't need The Book, you just keep on inventing your own belief system with whatever blows across your finite brain.

I personally need something more solid and sure to base my beliefs on.

I find Christ to be a very firm foundation

I would think most Christians would consider Jesus to be the Word of God

So Michael do you go around kissing all the guys at your church?

You are putting way way yonder too much emphasis on a little closing statement that NT writers tacked on at the end of their letters. Even back then I don't believe it was intended as a command but rather as an encouragemt to show affection for their fellow believers.

Michael,

The issue you point out regarding how one views scripture is correct, but your conclusion is not.

Understanding that certain statements are made within the cultural setting (such as a holy kiss) and can be interpreted and applied in a similar but different cultural way does not mean that the bible is not complete and 100% The word of God.
If one cannot distinguish between such things as cultural greetings and the essential nature of sexual morality and the natural order of a man and a women it is becuse they don't want to and have an agenda.

As a point of interest, I am currently in Turkey and here all the guys greet one another with a formal kiss on both cheeks, however not with us 'westerners' they shake our hands. :) They can distinguish between different cultures, why can't anyone?

Post by lorddoitagain : If you don't need The Book, you just keep on inventing your own belief system with whatever blows across your finite brain.

The people who wrote the bible did just fine don't you think? They had nothing to go by but the witness on their hearts, we have Christ in us!! This is a huge fallacy in your way of thinking. Can you address it?

I have kissed a brother with a Holy kiss. It is the result of the love that God shed upon one's heart for your brother in Christ.

If the Holy Spirit is in it, you will know the difference between fleshly lust and Spiritual love. Has nothing to do with culture.

I do not believe Greeting with Holy Kiss is a command. I believe greeting is a command, we in our church, greet all brothers after the meeting is over. We spend time fellowshiping with one another. It is spirit that is important not the actual word. If we follow kissing but miss the actual fellowship part then what is the purpose of following the command? Understand the spirit behind all the commands of God.

Jesus himself said that my word is Spirit. If we ignore the spirit and literally take up only the word then we will easily become a pharisee.

Think about this scenario, suppose you practice holy kissing because it is a command of God and then kiss a brother who is struggling with homosexuality, are you not leading him to temptation? William Booth, stopped breaking of bread in his Church because the wine used in the church reminded some of the former drunkards to go back to their drinking habit. Is not breaking of Bread a command? The spirit that is important not the letter. By following an external command if I am making a brother to stumble then I will not follow it.

Also Bible commands, eat whatever is sold in market without asking question. But we are also commanded not to eat meat when there is a weak brother who does not eat meat sit next to you. So it is the spirit that is important here.

Same way, kissing of same sex is perverted in this society, hence it is not wise to practice it just for the sake of practicing and then bring dishonor to the name of God. I would personally not practice it.

Heydave wrote:"Michael,

Understanding that certain statements are made within the cultural setting (such as a holy kiss) and can be interpreted and applied in a similar but different cultural way does not mean that the bible is not complete and 100% The word of God.
If one cannot distinguish between such things as cultural greetings and the essential nature of sexual morality and the natural order of a man and a women it is becuse they don't want to and have an agenda.

As a point of interest, I am currently in Turkey and here all the guys greet one another with a formal kiss on both cheeks, however not with us 'westerners' they shake our hands. :) They can distinguish between different cultures, why can't anyone?"

**********************

Heydave, you are leaving it to the "common sense" of the person to decide which things should be taken as they are written and which things should be changed to fit the culture. We have a same-sex couple in our town that has been together for 25 years and go to a Christian church and are known as "great Christians". To them, those statements that condemn sodomy are culturally relative.

Your friends in Turkey understand that Western Christians are under the delusion that things like men holding hands, hugging, putting their arms around each other or kissing are sexually inspired actions. They've seen your withdrawals and shocked looks too many times. I have friends on Facebook in Pakistan who do all of those things and publish the pictures. In those countries where there is much more open display of physical affection between men, there is much much less sodomy.

So when does the church stop and analyze its culturally accepted beliefs in light of The Word?