Are those who believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit unsaved and in a cult?

sermonindex Jul 10, 2017

Quote by John MacArthur given at The Strange Fire Conference a few years ago.

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And this is why I believe that we are not dividing the body of Christ in this conference. We are trying to identify the body of Christ and show that these people aren’t part of it…People have been hitting the Twitter thing all day . . . One of the criticisms s coming is: this is divisive, these are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They’re not. Should we be happy about that? No, we should be heartbroken. If we want to talk about "fire,” we need to talk about snatching brands from the burning (Jude 23). These people need to be rescued . . .the reality is that these people are lost in this system, and they are throwing the word Jesus all over the place. They don’t know the gospel, and they don’t understand the gospel . . . people can’t be saved out of that movement until they hear the gospel.
"Because this is such an important issue, I am certain with the people sitting here, they might say Dr MacArthur though I know some people, and I know its wacky and its goofy, but think they love the Lord, and they would tell you they were a Christian”
So are the Mormons.

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What are the thoughts of the Forum on the quote above by John MacArthur?

Bro Blaine

sermonindex Jul 10, 2017

What are my thoughts?
We should leave him alone.

M

Martyr Jul 10, 2017

I am not a fan of MacArthur but is there some kind of context to this? Anything? This is just a small snippet of something he said and alone it doesn't really say much

D

dohzman Jul 11, 2017

The acid test of Christianity is LOVE, By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by the love you have one to another Jhn 13:35

What is a disciple? Jhn 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Jhn 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples Act 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

The danger comes in when we sit in Moses seat and make eternal judgements on different christian "sects" ie pentecostals verse baptists vers methodists verse and so forth. It is unwise to say Mat 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
In essence the "thou fool" is to say you can not be saved.

I personally over look a great many things sincere learned men and women say in public forums and Brother MacArthur also. somethings he says is good I hold to those, the real trouble is that on all sides and specifically the hyper faith movement which took off out of the pentecostal movement and came along after the Jesus people movement, they preached everything to extreme excesses and a ton of the teachers ran after and still run after filthy lucre, greed and they use the good gifts of a Loving Father to obtain or deceive people out of the things they themselves desire. In the faith movement it was easy to stand in front of several hundred people and say I claim this or that by faith, someone was always bound to fill that faith claim, very seldom did the pulpit keep the things they had secretly prayed to the Lord for a secret, however, by the same token I know of real answers to really huge needs that were kept secret that the Lord answered in the lives of some of these church leaders. Many church leaders are quick to say that the specific manifestation are of the devil, I have always been real slow and very careful because of all the examples in the bible of giftings used wrongly, a quick reference would be Sampson a few unnamed ones besides. That said blanket statements always are red flags to me but in JM s case I have to believe that he is making reference to are those fringe sects in the charismatic movement that have run to the extreme right or left and have brought disrepute to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

T

twayneb Jul 11, 2017

Bro. Blaine: I agree with Tyler. There is nothing in what you quoted that tells us exactly who MacArthur is speaking about. That is perhaps the most important piece of information to this post.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2017

Unfortunately my Googling research has not turned up the full transcript or the video the OP makes reference to. The video that went with the partial transcript has been removed.

I am going to listen to The Strange Fire messages to see if I can find a video reference to the OP quote allegedly given by John MacArthur.

Bro Blaine

sermonindex Jul 11, 2017

And this is why I believe that we are not dividing the body of Christ in this conference. We are trying to identify the body of Christ and show that these people aren’t part of it

Blaine,

You are totally taking his words out of context. He is saying clearly that the conference on the Holy Spirit was a warning to the body of Christ that there are many heretical movements in the Charismatic and Pentecostal that are not part of the body of Christ.

At the conference they mentioned many large movements that believed in the Holy Spirit work and were extreme, full of errors and in the end heretical. I have to agree with this as the most heresy and false teachings that have possibly ever happened in a long time in Church history is happening through so called: "spirit filled churches" in North America.

Just turn on Christian TV or God TV to see this. Something is terribly wrong and one cannot help but think that even the great falling away is a pseudo spirit filled type churches that teach false heresies such as modalism (no trinity), prosperity gospel (1 timothy 6 warns against this, their god is their belly), restorationism (a new prophet restores the book of acts but all other churches are wrong). and the list goes on.

Though John MacArthur is not perfect he does elevate and teach many true things, to disagree with the way the holy spirit operates in our day is not necessarily heretical. He would agree that the Holy Spirit is very active and God still does heal.

I personally do not believe "how" the baptism in the holy spirit was thought in the charismatic movement is very scriptural. I do believe some got the real experience but overall it was a new idea and way of experiencing the holy spirit, so we have to question it.

The over-emphasis on tongues, gifts, to the determent of christ himself or the scriptures needs us to realize something is wrong. When my baptism of the holy spirit experience does not end in loving others, overcoming sin, being holy as God is holy, then we have not received the HOLY spirit but some other experience.

I do thank God for the stand MacArthur took against the prosperity gospel and other heresies like this, would to God that the true pentecostals themselves did the same thing, but they have not!

D

dolfan Jul 11, 2017

Now hold on.

The context is the Strange Fire conference a few years ago.

You want fuller context? Have at it. Go watch the videos and audios of all that was said in that meeting. If you can stomach it all. Whatever is not said in arrogance is said in error.

MacArthur plainly concludes that all who believe in speaking in tongues today are heretics and not Christians. He does not limit himself to charismaniacs.

Let me offer this too. There is a huge difference between Pentecostal Holiness Wesleyan belief (where I camp) and "charismatic" belief, which is that ever increasing monster that gobbles up the Pentecostal identity as its own. TBN and its various networks have done great harm here. Take God TV, for example, which is a terrible rhetorical post to lean on as an example of what MacArthur condemned since its bare heresy DOES consume pentecostal identity for so many who are outside the reality of the biblical and proper view of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and His work from the Day of Pentecost until even now. But, while some would carefully observe the distinctions--which are vast and important--others lump these two opposing ways of life together. Some throw out both thinking they are the same. Others, like MacArthur, throw both out not caring if they are the same but all too happy to leverage the misidentification.

Let me be short and sweet then: John MacArthur is wrong. He does not care. He has a whole solar system orbiting around him of sycophants like Steve Lawson and RC Sproul who hang onto him like gospel singers hang into Bill Gaither. They smile, oohh, aaahh, clap and get paid to sing along and convince a nation of coattail holders and fanboys that they mean it. So they can sell what they do. And look, there are a LOT of buyers. A lot.

MacArthur is wrong to sweep Wesleyan Pentecostal Holiness belief into a right call-out of charismatics. He is wrong to conclude that the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it occurred in the New Trstament and the gift of tongues is not for today. He is wrong to say that those who do so believe are not Christians or are deceived and in danger. He called out at Strange Fire, of all people, John Piper, for being a continuationist. John Piper! Give me a break on the circle of genuflection around MacArthur.

S

StirItUp Jul 11, 2017

Quote "He is wrong to conclude that the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it occurred in the New Testament and the gift of tongues is not for today. He is wrong to say that those who do so believe are not Christians or are deceived and in danger. "

Agreed

sermonindex Jul 11, 2017

Tim writes...........

"MacArthur plainly concludes that all who believe in speaking in tongues today are heretics and not Christians. He does not limit himself to charismaniacs."

Of course that it is true, and if one fails to acknowledge that, that one is clearly willfully ignorant and part of the sycophants that surround so many so called leaders of our day. It is not as though Macarthur is vague or ambiguous about it. He is not the only one to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but he is one. Multiple pentecostals on this very forum have condemned every aspect of charismania. I personally have met multiple penetecostals from around the world who are like minded in their disgust for name it and claim it, propserity and so on.

The enemy clearly saw the pentecostal movement as the greatest threat to his kingdom in the last 100 years and came against it with a fury from every angle. He sought to destroy it from within and the Trojan horse called Charismatics were the horse. Now of course Troy cannot be taken just by a horse, it must have soldiers inside the horse and outside. Macarthur is juts one of the soldiers outside the gates. Once the gates were flung open by the charismatics, in come the cessasionists to finish them off. Now having said all that, the pentecostals are fully to blame for allowing all of this to happen, to fall for the schemes of the enemy.

I think that is why I wept when David Wilkerson died. He was unafraid to take on the Charismatics and call them out. He may have been the last great voice on the subject. The full Gospel has always had its vicious opponents and it always will...................bro Frank

P

proudpapa Jul 11, 2017

I am no fan of Macarthur, But lets be honest and not use little edited snippets to make it seem like he is saying something different than that of what he has clarified in the past.

"The Strange Fire conference will boldly and thoroughly deal with prosperity preachers, faith healers, and many of the other familiar charismatic aberrations and blasphemies of the Holy Spirit.

At the same time, John MacArthur knows there are those in charismatic and Pentecostal churches who love Christ, serve His people, and””like John””are disturbed by the sinful excesses they see dominating the charismatic movement. In the following video, John has a heartfelt message for those folks."

https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B130520/john-macarthurs-encouragement-to-faithful-pentecostals

S

Sree Jul 11, 2017

The enemy clearly saw the pentecostal movement as the greatest threat to his kingdom in the last 100 years and came against it with a fury from every angle.

Very true. Only reason there are lot of fake manifestation of the works of Holy Spirit in Christendom today is because the real manifestation is so powerful and worthy. No one fakes a penny but they fake $100 bill because it is very valuable. Same way the real Pentecostal experience is very valuable.

He may have been the last great voice on the subject.

No not at all. There is still a man alive called Zac Poonen. I have heard that he was once invited to speak in a big Pentecostal conference in INdia. He was supposed to speak for 3 days or something. But after the 1st session, they changed the speaker and did not even give him a sendoff from that place. He had to find his own means to come back from the conference! Anyone can guess what he has spoken to offend them so much! Zac was even called Devil and persecuted by Pentecostals for his teachings.

I know a very Godly man in India who spoke in a meeting among Pentecostal pastors. He told them that the Holy Spirit is dove and when he comes upon you, you may receive gifts like speaking in tongues. But that gift is like the bird dung. People who hold only to tongues but ignore the holiness that the Holy Spirit should bring are those from whom the bird has already flew but the dung alone is on them!

God still has many prophets who speak against the fake manifestation of Holy Spirit in the charismatic movement.

sermonindex Jul 11, 2017

Hi PP. that was a good video and if this was the standard then that would be good. Lets consider this. If John believes that there are good Pentecostals and that these people are Christians, then what does he think about the sign gifts of the Spirit? If he does not believe they are for now then he is denying the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. If He does believe in them then why are they not acknowledged and practiced in his own church. I am sorry, but he simply cannot have it both ways. He himself spoke about sound doctrine. If he is wrong about the sign gifts, and he is, then he is operating in gross error would you not agree? In any other walk of life, would we follow someone who is operating in gross error?

Now why is it gross error? Because God has shown us how we must operate in the Body, and by denying this and ripping page after page of the Scriptures, you are taking away from the Word. What matter would it be if you were profoundly following two thirds of the Word but denying a third? ...........bro Frank

sermonindex Jul 11, 2017

Well Sree, I am glad to hear that. I too have heard from saints all over the world, pentecostal saints, who mourn and weep because of counterfeit Christianity. Not sure I like the "dung," analogy," as only good things come from the Father. I do agree with holiness and how important it is to live an exemplary life that bears witness to the truth that we hold.........bro Frank

S

Sree Jul 11, 2017

Not sure I like the "dung," analogy," as only good things come from the Father.

Ha ha. He said that to provoke them to anger. In Pentecostals today speaking in tongues is the only thing that is important in Christianity. Hence the speaker compared tongues to dung. Basically he was saying tongues are result of Holy Spirit coming upon you. But the proof of Holy SPirit residing in you should be Holy Life.

P

proudpapa Jul 11, 2017

Bro Frank,

I hear what you are saying.

But there are many Preachers represented on SI that lean/ed cessationist ?
From my understanding most of what we have of recorded church history seem's that they did not practice the gift signs as we read about in the Scriptures ?

We do not throw all of them such as Spurgeon under the bus because of such views.

I was just pointing out that MacArthur has clarified that he is not throwing all continuist under the bus.

I am not a fan of MacArthur and have no need to defend him beyond an honest representation, but even our worse enemies are worthy of an honest representation .

sermonindex Jul 11, 2017

Blaine,

You are totally taking his words out of context.

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Brother, with all do respect what have I taken out of context. I just posted a quote that allegedly John MacArthur gave at The Strange Fire Conference. Then I simply asked for feedback from The Forum.

I expressed no opinion of my own in the OP. Granted the quote was only, by the admission of the blogger, a partial transcript. This is why I'm listening to John MacArthur's messages from Strange Fire Conference to find the full quote.

So to say I've taken something out of context is not correct since I did not express any of my own opinions.

Respectfully posted.