Church of England: LGBT 'Not a Sin'

Half of England is atheist, half Muslim and the other half is deceived.

I know what I said. But, if the church can mark a non existent gender there are three halves of everything.

Let's hope all those churches close.

Dolfan, my wife is from England. She can absolutely confirm this to be true. It is largely a Muslim country at this point with those who are English being largely atheist

As the official CofE website points out, the vote went overwhelmingly in favor of welcoming transgender people,

The problem here is with VOTING. If you are in a Church that decides things by VOTING then please run from the Church now itself. It is just the matter of time before they will collapse to any moral decline. Voting is not at all God's way of doing thing. God wanted to elect Kings for Israel. Never asked them to Vote. In New Covenant as well Paul asks Timothy to appoint Elders not to vote for elders.

The fact that there is a voting is clear sign that they want people to decide what to do, what is best for them. But God wants us to seek his will and ways in everything.

Any Church that conducts voting is already on a path of decline. PERIOD. God is true. If we seek to please men we cannot please God (Gal 1:10). I know many reads will be saying that VOTING is just a small thing, why should we take that serious in our church. But that shows the Church's careless attitude towards pleasing God.

Let's hope all those churches close.

It’s tempting to focus on one symptom (sexual identities) without realizing that we may be doing the same thing, just as Paul says in Rom 2. We may be placing our identity in something about ourselves ”“ if not our sexual preference, it’s our religious preference, and we too may assert our self-righteousness. But Paul brings the focus to the universal need for Christ ”“ and in Him these other identities matter little. ("I count it all rubbish” he says.)

I hope we can see more of that emphasis today - beginning in "the household of God"!!

This movement or that movement is continually exposing themselves as having fallen astray. But what is also being exposed is the danger of men bringing there conscience under the subjection of a leader or movement

Quote "Half of England is atheist, half Muslim and the other half is deceived."

Tim, your Math made me smile :) 150%? Well as a Brit living here I would guess we may have at least 2% true bible believing Christians, probably more. There are nowhere near 50% (30 Million) Muslims in the UK. The figure is around 3 million (that's 5% of pop) and a large proportion of those would be 'nominal' Muslims, not dedicated Islamists.

So if we take into account the 'nominal Christians (e.g CofE) and nominal Muslims, Hindus, sikhs, et al you probably have around 70% being either agnostic or having some belief in a god. There is only a small percentage of real Atheists

However, I agree with your sentiments, even if the Math is a bit OTT. :)

"Britain is a post Christian country...........bro Frank"

Absolutely true. But isn't most of the Western world now post Christian? Problem is the USA thinks it is still Christian! In reality it is just another form of 'evangelical' apostate Christianity.

The C of E has long been apostate (as long as I have been alive) and is not representative of the true Christian church in England, which as I have indicated is very small as a percentage of the population. But wasn't it always so?
You can go back a few hundred years and there were the bible believing dissenters (Baptists, etc) who were persecuted by the state Church (CofE) because they refused to recognise it.

Yes there is much pandering to the Muslims as well as the Gay minority, so they appear to be much larger in number than they are.

Diane, the focus is not on one symptom, the focus is on what is true and what is not.

Bro Frank, I believe you have missed my point because of my sketchy explanation.
A lot of the divisiveness surrounding the gay issue/gay ordination indeed arises out of obsession over ONE presenting symptom, one particular behavior, with little regard for the whole individual ”“ or the cultural climate in which such things arise. What about the related issues of identity, longing for acceptance, and so forth … all driving factors tainted by sin. A hornet’s nest of sin issues apply to LGBT interest group. Consider the problem of unforgiveness, which is now given an honorable status. Today the revered voice is the voice of offense. Naturally. When God is lost, mercy is lost. I ask: Is the absence of mercy not the worst sin problem? That problem would destroy us all ”“ apart from God’s mercy on us.

We’ll get nowhere if we put homosexuality at the top of the sin list. The Bible doesn’t do that. It’s we who do that to the Bible.

There’s plenty of Romans 2 kind of Christians around, and they are just as much of the problem. If all we can do is bash out verses against homosexuality, we convince no one but ourselves, and we are merely dry springs. The "other side” bashes out their own set of verses or defenses and decide we hate them. No one gets a taste of Christ who alone can heal the disease of sin and bring meaning, purpose, and true identity into one’s life. Meanwhile, each side reinforces their righteousness.

Those who drift into fruitless and harmful ways of living (intentional or not) do so as a way of trying to make life work for them ”“ WITHOUT GOD (the root sin). That’s our cultural climate today. So, what does that mean for us believers? Stick to our job! It’s a ministry of reconciliation… mercy. (see 2 Corinthians 17-21)

Frank, I’m sure you agree. Hope that’s a better explanation of my thoughts.

Diane

The gay community does not and has never wanted acceptance.

I would challenge that, Frank. It’s an innate need, the need to belong. We’re created to belong to God. But sin has turned that natural need into destructive behaviors.

Presently my congregation is divided over the gay ordination issue. I’ve heard all the stuff you describe. I’ve seen a lot of mercilessness, esp on the "pro” side, but the other side too, though far less. If we stick to character qualities alone, we could have enough to focus on without mentioning sexual orientation. Mostly, it’s an issue over approach to scripture ”“scripture submit to man, vs man submit to scripture. That’s the real divide, but no one wants to talk about that ”“ and it’s easier to talk about homosexuality. There’s also the clergy/laity divide which has become unbiblical. Correcting that in itself could take care of the gay issue. They say, "Follow the dollar”. That’s the underlying momentum ”“ money, status, pension for wan-a-be gay clergy. If there was no money in it, I doubt that there would have been such a fuss… It wouldn’t pay off.

The gay ordination overture is a foolish appeal. Sadly, there will be no winner in the final vote! Regardless of who "wins”, half the congregation is gone. And that’s a loss for all. That’s the tragic outcome of placing the divide where the apostle Paul did not put the divide. The divide is not pro or against any issue ”“ but the divide is between God and sinner (all people) ”“and we all need mercy.

The attack is coming from the sinner against the saint Diane, not the other way around.

As much as I denounce the demands for gay ordination, safe spaces, or whatever is on the social palate, I am deeply concerned about the habit of stopping before the end of Romans 1 in our biblical defenses against homosexuality. That’s abortive theology! What about the next chapter.. and the next.

Part of OUR problem is our propensity to grab the "carrot” our opponents dangle before us. It derails us ”“ and gives them the upper hand. They’ve got lots of support - gov’t, schools, Hollywood, and now the "thought police” which is arising to revered status. I don’t think we’ll stop the slippery slope, Frank ”“ not on the sexual identity issues. It’s the wrong battle ground. ... don't you think?

Thank you Frank,
The more I have been "immersed" in the issue, the more I suspect that God will target this group in his great Covenant Promise - to heal, transform, and forgive. And it may be the rest of us who are silenced and humbled.

Isn't that what Jesus often did in the gospels?

Diane

if you mean the saints will be silenced from sharing and standing upon the truth then I disagree

I suspect that God views the un-mercifulness of the Romans 2 type of Christians today as a greater sin than the entire list of sinners in Romans 1 ”“ including the homosexuals.

Jesus poured out his grace on the very ones whom, in that day, the moral police most condemned ”“ the tax collectors and prostitutes. I’m sure Jesus would have added the homosexuals if they were on the radar of these moral police. Maybe there weren't many around Palestine.

Jesus condemned a lot of sins which we easily live in without batting an eyelash ”“ barely realizing that they apply to us. What about those who likewise fail to see sins which apply to them - like homosexuality or rebellion. Yet they are unchurched, deceived, or not very familiar with the Bible or those verses ”“ the very ones we’ve highlighted, underscored and circled so often that we we’ve burned a hole through the page.

It’s time to be silenced!! The treatment of Eugene Peterson by the "moral police” is abhorrent and unmerciful. I hope many read his response and are silenced and repentant. He’s had to shut himself away from the media vultures ”“ and also those who are hovering over, quick to condemn. He’s a dear brother!!! The Church cannot afford to be so torn apart by self-righteousness, picking on hypothetical points and whatever smells of sin. The lefties are taking advantage of this craziness, and making inroads because of it.

Jesus poured out his grace on the "worst sinners" of his day. Who are considered the worst of sinners today? Yes, the homosexuals. Some day we will be silenced of all our ramblings about their sins, as they proclaim the grace of God! Jesus will turn over the tables!

Here’s Peterson’s defense. It's too bad this was needed:
http://aliveliterary.com/eugene-peterson-issues-revised-statement-following-religion-news-service-interview/

Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

1Co 5:7

Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[fn]

1Co 5:8

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavenedbread of sincerity and truth.

1Co 5:9q

¶

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

1Co 5:10

Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

1Co 5:11

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner””not even to eat with such a person.

1Co 5:12

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?