I remember in a conversation with a retired pastor he made a rather controversial but yet a thought-provoking comment.
He remarked that the Bible is not a holy book. But the Bible is a book about One who is holy.
Bro Blaine
Surely the Bible is holy, as everything written by the Holy One is holy.
What is the point of calling the Bible? a "Holy Bible"? if the book itself is not holy? ... what is written in the Bible are all Holy Spirit inspired scribes and epistles...
The author of the Bible is a HOLY GOD, written by Holy Spirit filled men of God, that made the Scripture itself a holy one...
// "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. ~ Matthew 24:35, Jesus Christ //
Brother,
The Bible itself calls itself "Holy Scriptures"
Also calls the people of God "Holy" and the faith "Holy" and the Church "Holy.
Though it sounds nice what the pastor is saying it is not correct. But his point is the Scriptures themselves speak of the Holy God and that is true. "Beyond the Sacred page I seek Thee."
By sheer definition, the Bible is Holy. Holy means to be set-apart. The content within is just that, set-apart. Now, the means and methods for creating a Bible (book, scrolls, .pdf file, etc) those are not holy in and of themselves; the entirety of the contents are.
Twice the scriptures refer to themselves as holy scriptures (thanks, Greg!), and 2 different words are used for holy. One is hagios, which means holy and also is the word we use for saints (we are literally THE Holy). And Heiros, which means sacred or of divinity. Either way, scriptures themselves are holy.
We have to be careful, because if we travel down the road of saying, "The scriptures are not holy, but God is"), then we move toward idolatry. Here's how it'll play out:
1) Bible isn't holy
2) Bible isn't holy, because it was written in part by man.
3) Bible was written in part by man, so there are some places that are erroneous or simply opinion.
4) Since the bible is no longer a completely trustable authority, I can rely on my feelings to guide me where I feel like the Bible errs.
5) I worship God in the way that feels right, as long as it doesn't color too far outside the lines.
6) I define the lines.
And boom! You have post-modernism/post-truth Christianity, where we have successfully diminished our view of scripture, and now are doing what is right in our own eyes, and worshipping a "god" of our own making.
Welcome to the USA.
If we say the Bible is holy then is this not opening up bibliolatry? Is this not opening up worship of the Bible?
Bro Blaine
That will be a YES from me for the record! I am guilty, I am an idolator from which I will not repent! LOL!
Considering that Gutenberg didn't invent the printing press until 1450 and the actually Holy Bible is only 567 yrs old compared to following the Lord for 4450 yrs before that, how can we say the paper is all that holy?
Come on, friends! "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." ~ John 4:24
God bless,
Lisa
The ONLY ways to make the Bible an idle is to elevate It above God or to believe that I must use the Bible as a charm to grant me access to God.
I agree with what God has decided regarding His own words:
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.
Lysa, I most certainly agree that we must worship in spirit and truth, so my question to you is this: what is truth, what is it's source, and how has the Lord chosen to convey that truth?
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Lysa, I most certainly agree that we must worship in spirit and truth, so my question to you is this: what is truth, what is it's source, and how has the Lord chosen to convey that truth.
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Should the question not be Who is truth? Did Jesus not say I am the way and the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but through Me?
Is truth not in a Person? And does not that Person have a name who is called Jesus?
Bro Blaine
Yes, you have answered the first two questions, brother. The third question, though, you have answered without realizing. You know those things about Jesus because of His word.
Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the Word of God. The Pharisees didn't get that. They stopped at hearing and believed that just by having and knowing the scriptures that they had eternal life. THAT, my friend, is Bible idolatry.
Also, the Spirit works in tandem with the Scriptures. Remember: the Spirit works in our lives to bring to mind the Words of Jesus. We don't know those without the scripures.
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Faith comes by hearing. Hearing comes by the Word of God. The Pharisees didn't get that. They stopped at hearing and believed that just by having and knowing the scriptures that they had eternal life. THAT, my friend, is Bible idolatry.
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Very insightful bro. I would agree that is biblical idolatry. To have only the scriptures themselves and believe that they bring eternal life is biblical idolatry.
Jesus goes on to say that these are the scriptures that testify about me. Yet you refuse to come to me so that you may have life.
I get this picture of the Pharisees with their little pointers looking at the scrolls so intently that they could not look up and see that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Torah.
Bro Blaine
by havok20x
Lysa, I most certainly agree that we must worship in spirit and truth, so my question to you is this: what is truth, what is it's source, and how has the Lord chosen to convey that truth?and later...
Also, the Spirit works in tandem with the Scriptures. Remember: the Spirit works in our lives to bring to mind the Words of Jesus. We don't know those without the scripures.
Jesus commanded them: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. (Acts 1:4) and that gift wasn't the Bible either.
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. ~ John 16.13
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about Me. ~ John 15:26
I love Scripture, as you can see from what I have posted!! If we do not walk with Holy Spirit, no matter what we read will get twisted.
God bless,
Lisa
Bro Bear,
My thoughts on what this man, mentioned
We know that Jesus' death was to be before hand,and was meant to be.
But 'The Words' that He spoke / preached,was also what He came to do.
(He is 'ONE' with The Word of God.) ....He came preaching 'The kingdom of God / heaven is at hand.'...( it is in His hand,...it is His good pleasure to give it to us.
He was persecuted / hated / and killed, because of The Word, that He spoke../ and the Life that He Lived, ...a life that goes w/ The Word...He Lived in a kingdom, not of this worlds kingdom.
That true Life and Word brings an offense.
I have seen many times,..that there are ones that want to have a Jesus without The Word,...could it be, because with The Word, comes a responsibility to that Word ?
We no,that if we have a Jesus without The Word,...then we have another Jesus,..
The Holy Spirit that The Lord has placed within us is Word / Spirit-
A fountain of Living Water,that rises up within us,unto Life.,..guides us,
(leading us by His Spirit)...
And when He teaches / speaks to us,through His Spirit, we can go to the written Word, to confirm ,what He has spoken to us about.
(So we thank God for the written Word.)
----------------
elizabeth
Brother,
that is very thought provoking. Here is a quote by Richard Wurmbrand, found of "The Voice of the Martyrs".....I have pondered on this too as it is similar to what you are presenting. (I can't seem to copy and paste the actual quote, but here is the page with more of his quotes)
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/543365
Notice that he does not deny the bible as the truth....this man had a deep love for Jesus, for the body, and much good fruit...
Sister here is the Richard Wurmbrandt quote that you referenced,
ӢӢӢThe Bible is a wonderful book. It is the truth about the Truth. It is not the Truth. A sermon taken from the Bible can be a wonderful thing to hear. It is the truth about the truth about the truth. But it is not the truth. There have been many books written about the things contained in the Bible. I have written some myself. They can be quite wonderful to read. They are the truth about the truth about truth about the Truth. But they are NOT the Truth. Only Jesus Christ is the Truth. Sometimes the Truth can be drowned in a multitude of words.ӢӢӢ
Very profound indeed from a godly saint who suffered much for Jesus.
Bro Blaine
ӢӢӢAlso, the Spirit works in tandem with the Scriptures. Remember: the Spirit works in our lives to bring to mind the Words of Jesus. We don't know those without the scripures.ӢӢӢ
I would agree with the above statement by bro Havok. Â But this started me thinking. Should our emphasis be up on the written word as in our Bible? Or should the emphasis be upon the spoken word by the Holy Spirit.
Consider the versus below,
John 3:34
ӢӢӢFor He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.ӢӢӢ
John 6:63
ӢӢӢIt is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.ӢӢӢ
Hebrews 1:1-2
”¢”¢”¢God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”¢”¢”¢
It seems that under the old Covenant the emphasis was on the written word. But it seems that under the New Covenant the emphasis is on the spoken Word as by the Holy Spirit. Â Of course Jesus being the Word.
Just my thoughts for meditation.
Bro BlaineÂ
I would call it an "unhelpful statement".
It is not one or the other or what is more important.
It is "God breathed" , ie the Words are from God and therefore of infinite value. You can't compare it with other writings just as you can't compare God.
There is none like You, O LORD; You are great, and great is Your name in might. Jeremiah 10:6
Jesus Himself said many times: "it is written..."
In Matthew 22:29 He said "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
"""It is "God breathed" , ie the Words are from God and therefore of infinite value. You can't compare it with other writings just as you can't compare God."""
I completely agree that the Word of God is "God Breathed". There isn't any other book like it. If I read the profound statement correctly, the understanding I get isn't to deny the bible in any way. When I read Richard Wurmbrandts quote, my initial thought was, "why would he say that?" But I think I understand....there are people who "worship" the bible as they do Jesus. If I remember correctly, I believe another brother from a persecuted county said the same thing..."people worship the bible"....it may have been Brother Yun. Jesus is the LIVING WORD. He absolutely inspired the bible, but we worship Jesus. I hope this helps.
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