Baptism with the Holy Spirit

This thread is an offshoot of the thread "Gifts of the Spirit" posted by Esther(TakeUptheCross).

Hi Mike,

Let us discuss this point by point.

First, Acts 19:1-6 ---

My thoughts:

These people that Paul met were disciples of John. They had not yet believed in the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:3-4 -- And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, ***** telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus *****."

The Holy Spirit is received by faith (Gal. 3:14) but these people knew nothing about the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 -- And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

How can they believe if they had not heard (Rom. 10:14)?

So, I would say that these people Paul met were not yet indwelled by the Holy Spirit. So, when the Holy Spirit came upon them, it was NOT the "second blessing” but the FIRST time that the Holy Spirit came, to indwell them.

Do you see any error in what I have said?

Blessings.

Acts 19:3,4 clearly states that John baptized people and told them to believe in Jesus. Read the verse again. So they knew about Jesus already. Otherwise, what did John preach? Repentance is useless without a Savior.

Acts chapter 8 NKJV --

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

These disciples had already believed in the Lord Jesus and had already been baptized in His name....

Blessings!

" For as yet He had fallen upon none of them"

Wow! Sounds different from simply being born of the Spirit, doesn't it? Sounds like additional power from above...

John was BEFORE the cross and the resurrection.

Edit to add:

John could not have preached Rom. 6:3-11

Acts chapter 8 NKJV --
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The above verses clearly indicate that these people were believers. They had received the Word of God, they were baptized in the Lord's name, but yet they had not received the Holy Spirit.
"Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:17).
They received the Holy Spirit after Peter and John laid hands on them.

"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?”

"John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, "John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

The Word of God says that they were disciples, they were believers, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. They were baptized because they were believers and then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them.

Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Note:
(1) Repent
(2) and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins
(3) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Is (3) the Spirit coming to indwell the believer or is it the "second blessing”?

William,

On the day of Pentecost,

Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Was this the Holy Spirit coming to indwell them for the first time or was this a "second blessing"?

Edit to add:
Was this also the day they were born again?

Mike,

I think we have to go back to basics.

What is "baptism"?

It is almost midnight here. Write again tomorrow,

Hi Jade,

I believe that every believer in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit indwelling them already, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit often occurs sometimes quite a while after conversion.

In John 20:22,23 (and before the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost) "...He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

So it seems they received the deposit of the Holy Spirit in them but the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them in power and fulness as in the book of Acts (which is similar to the way the Spirit came upon Ezekiel, speaking to him, lifting him up and carrying him places like Philip after baptizing the Ethiopian in water in Acts etc etc)

I don't have a neat, clear explanation for how it all fits together, but it is clear that saints throughout church history, and long before the charismatic movement, have testified to a second experience (and more fillings) apart from believing and being baptized in water.

For anyone interested, wanted to share 2 books that are greatly encouraging and very balanced regarding the importance of the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience/blessing to be sought after conversion...

The Spirit of Christ by Andrew Murray

Joy Unspeakable: The Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit by D. Martyn Lloyd Jones

I believe that every believer in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit indwelling them already, but that the baptism of the Holy Spirit often occurs sometimes quite a while after conversion.

In John 20:22,23 (and before the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost) "...He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'"

Amen! The Holy Spirit came into them
(Salvation), but had not yet come upon
them. (Baptism of Holy Spirit).

Were the disciples born again and were they indwelt by the Holy Spirit in John 20:22,23?

Write again tomorrow.

I believe one of the big mistakes in our thinking is that the Baptism or filling of the Holy Spirit is a one time event and that once you have had that experience, 'you've got it'.
Scripture seems to indicate this is not so.

Acts 2:3-4
"Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Then later.....

Acts 4:8
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:"

The again later...
Acts 4:31
"And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."

Eph 5:18\t
"And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,"

To follow up on Jade's point, baptism means to be 'immersed in' / 'overwhelmed by' or 'filled'. When we are Baptised into Christ, we are in Him and He is in us. So baptism means not just 'coming on us', but also us fully 'immersed in'. Therefore Baptism and filled are the same thing.

Being baptised in the spirit or filled with the spirit is different to being indwelt with the spirit which happens at conversion to regenerate us and makes us alive in Christ.

This mistake of thinking that folk that get an initial 'baptism in the spirit, 'have now got it' is where I think a lot of the error and false gifts comes from. Even if someone experiences a true filling and exercising of a gift like tongues or prophecy at one time, because they think they now have it, often what follows is the flesh copying that experience.

This is my experience of over 30 years of involvement with Charismatic and Pentecostal churches. I do believe in the continuance of the gifts and have exercised many of the gifts like tongues, prophecy, etc. However I very seldom speak in tongues now days because there is no need or benefit to anyone for this and I am not going to do this in the flesh. I have seen more flesh at work in the area of gifts in the church than true operation of the gifts and I agree with Zac Poonen that 95% of what people are claiming are the gifts of the spirit are not at all.

I have also seen more spiritual maturity and fruit in non- Charismatic churches than those who claim to have the fullness! How can we say they don't have the Holy spirit or that they are not full of the spirit?
If we are honest, those of us who have been around the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements for some years know this is true.

//I have also seen more spiritual maturity and fruit in non- Charismatic churches than those who claim to have the fullness! How can we say they don't have the Holy spirit or that they are not full of the spirit?
If we are honest, those of us who have been around the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements for some years know this is true.//

This has been true in my experience as well- granted I haven't visited every "charismatic" fellowship so it is somewhat of a generalization.

ADD: if I had my druthers, I'd worship with charismatics and hear preaching from and study scripture with baptists. This is also something of a generalization but perhaps you catch my drift.

This mistake of thinking that folk that get an initial 'baptism in the spirit, 'have now got it' is where I think a lot of the error and false gifts comes from. Even if someone experiences a true filling and exercising of a gift like tongues or prophecy at one time, because they think they now have it, often what follows is the flesh copying that experience.

I agree with you completely. I believe I have experienced the baptism of Holy Spirit. But I still need to be filled with the Holy Spirit every day. Else I can find my Christian life dry as well.

But I believe the gifts can remain even if the person who once got baptized in the holy spirit is not continuously filled. That is why you see those in Matt 7 who hold on to gifts but lose the anointing are caste away. I do not believe they are unbelievers. They were people with genuine gifts, but did not seek to be filled everyday.

we should never evaluate a christian by his gifts. That is why Jesus said by their fruit you know them. If we seek to evaluate by gift rather than fruit, then we are bound to be deceived.

Were the disciples born again and were they indwelt by the Holy Spirit in John 20:22,23?

I believe they were saved, because Jesus says:

"He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all." (meaning Judas Iscariot)

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:16,17)

He dwells with you and SHALL BE in you (speaking of a future event).

Another example, I think, is the conversion of the Ethiopian. God took Phillip right after the water baptism - "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Phillip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing." (Acts 8:39)

Why did not God allow Phillip to lay on hands and pray for him, so that he may receive the Holy Ghost? I do not know. But I know, that this eunuch, right there was saved - became a child of God.

And in Romans it is said that "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:9) Meaning that if anybody is in Christ, he has the Spirit of God. But that is different from baptism in the Holy Spirit.