He Longed For The City...

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RobertW Jun 20, 2005

I was listening to Ravi Zacharias this weekend and he was talking about how C.S Lewis defined "Joy". The whole of his argument was that "Joy" is a deep inner longing for eternal things. It is an unsatisfied 'desire' that is more satisfying than any other satisfaction. It is a desire never achieved- but more desireable than any other desire. Anyone who has experienced it will want it again. He tells about one of Lewis's childhood experiences when he saw his brother bringing items for the garden and suddenly hearkened back to a time when his brother brought items into the nursery when they were younger and was at that moment overcome with intense desire- but desire for what? He said the desire seemed to feel not that it was years old- but centuries old. Yet, before he knew it the desire itself was GONE. At that moment when he was catapulted out of time was gone- everything again became commonplace. He found himself searching again for that longing and desire. He longed for the longing that he once had that was gone. In that he realized that it was not the memory that he longed for- it was the longing itself. As if he caught the scent of a flower that he had not yet found. Or echoesof the tune of a song he had not yet heard. And news from a country he had not yet visited...I wondered if anyone else may have heard that? You can access it here. If Ravi's argument is correct- then 'lust' is not a counterfeit for 'love' it is the counterfeit of joy. Abraham 'longed' for The City that had foundations- whose builder and maker is God. From this we can gather that the world is always attempting to seduce our affections away from the eternal and on to the temporal and he does it by having us find our fulfillment in our natural lusts- rather than in the joy of the Lord- which is merely a deep seated longing to be with God.Any thoughts?

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dohzman Jun 20, 2005

I enjoy Bro. Ravi's ministry. I had to re-read a couple of times what you posted. Reasoning within myself the word of God, "the joy of the Lord is my strength", I had to work backwards to see what it was Ravi was getting at. I believe Paul stated this:2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2Co 12:4 That he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2Co 12:5 Of such one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in my infirmities. It would seem that he spent the rest of his days reflecting back and pursueing toward that goal. I'm not sure I fully agree with lust(desire upon desire or very strong desire) as being opposite joy. I believe joy is the deepest part of our spirit witnessing to our total being that we are in perfect harmony(perfectly vertical) to the call , will and purposes of God for us. Where as lust is generally a full expression of the self life of which Jesus said to deny, so I guess maybe limitedly you can contrast the 2. How do you see it?

sermonindex Jun 20, 2005

I agree, dozzy, For it is God Who places in us both the will and desire to do His good pleasure. Lusting or desiring to satisfy the deep inner dwelling place reserved for the Holy Spirit by using carnal things and creatures as a substitute for the satisfaction that only comes through close relationship with God will leave us more empty than before. But the desire for communion with God is healthy, holy, and God given. The bible says that "He inhabits the praises of His people", and that "in His presence, there is fullness of joy". It goes on to say that "the joy of the Lord is my strenght". If all this be so,and it surely is, then to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might, to be filled to capacity in His joy and glory, we need only begin to praise Him from a thankful heart. Glory be to God.Rejoicing in Him,Lahry

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Joshua99 Jun 20, 2005

For it is God Who places in us both the will and desire to do His good pleasure. Lusting or desiring to satisfy the deep inner dwelling place reserved for the Holy Spirit by using carnal things and creatures as a substitute for the satisfaction that only comes through close relationship with God will leave us more empty than before This is a serious problem in those of us, who have not entered into His REST as yet. You see until we "Know the Lord" we will be at times "confused" or bible proper-decieved, as Lahry was saying, giving God our very best efforts and serving Him from the carnal mind prospective is unexceptable! If it is not birthed from the Spirit of God, having His desires which come from Him and then back to Him for His Glory, it is the works of the flesh or carnal mind. The only strong desire I have or would ever want now is to wait on Him for insights and all leading of the Spirit> to serve as He desires. I hope this helps.

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InTheLight Jun 20, 2005

Perhaps a topical study on the subject of "joy" would be helpful;Torrey's Topical Textbook - JoyIn Christ,Ron

sermonindex Jun 20, 2005

Robert,Quite recently, I read 'Surprised by Joy' by CS Lewis, (which seems to be missing some of the original chapters) and I was struck by the inconclusive nature of the text which is left. He describes his search for joy. The most striking thing, is how it surprised him. Also, from my own experience of interfacing with eternity, I perceived in his attempts to describe 'joy' an eternal quality - a sense of looking down the ages (as Leanne Payne might put it) or, as Lewis did 'centuries old'. It is a desire never achieved- but more desireable than any other desire.I think his desire to experience 'joy' again, understandably, became tangled up - all those desires - when actually, that eternal joy is accessed in the Spirit in certain situations mentioned in the Bible.In that he realized that it was not the memory that he longed for- it was the longing itself. Isn't this what many of us call 'hunger for God'?If Ravi's argument is correct- then 'lust' is not a counterfeit for 'love' it is the counterfeit of joy. This is a particularly interesting statement, as 'joy' is a function of pure love.Zephanaiah 317 ..he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.On reflection, I'd say lust is a form of hate rather than love and that is very far away from pure joy, although the association of pleasure with both hate and love is undeniable. However, I can see how Lewis might have been confused by manifestations of 'desire', because his desire to experience that 'joy' again, was very strong. He looked for it in many places but could never create the circumstances in which it would strike with full force.In that he realized that it was not the memory that he longed for- it was the longing itself. As if he caught the scent of a flower that he had not yet found. Or echoesof the tune of a song he had not yet heard. And news from a country he had not yet visited...Is not this what we call 'deja vu', which is a fleeting glimpe through the eyes of eternity, of another moment in time, nevertheless, leaving us with new knowledge, the acquisition of which we cannot demonstrate to the scientifically skeptical and which we cannot - need not - reproduce, because we ourselves are already convinced? There are similarities to this described by many a new father, who rightly claims their new baby looked towards him with recognition, even though they had not 'met' previously. Sorry if I've rambled a bit. I thought your original post was extremely interesting and expressed some tricky ideas quite clearly. Maybe something about 'deep calleth unto deep'?

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dohzman Jun 21, 2005

I love simple. A simple walk of faith, a simple seeking to hear and understand the voice of God, a simple doing the teachings of Jesus. Knowing that He will help every step of the way....."and though he fall he will not be cast down for the Lord will uphold him in his hand. " Thank God it doesn't say the righteous wont fall. I believe its all about heart desire.

sermonindex Jun 21, 2005

I love simple. A simple walk of faith, a simple seeking to hear and understand the voice of God, a simple doing the teachings of Jesus.CS Lewis was a long way from having turned his life over to God when he first experienced joy. He came to faith by being ruthlessly honest with God and himself as he was forced to discard useless ideas.

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dohzman Jun 22, 2005

I love his works but must confess, much like what Peter said of Paul, his sayings are sometimes hard to bear with or understand.