Are we servants of the Holy Spirit or prisoners of the organization?

There is a key aspect of life in Christ, it is the power of the Holy Spirit. Most would acknowledge this but many will not truly know what indeed they are acknowledging. What does it mean to be led of the Spirit as opposed to being prisoners of the organization? Let me give you a Biblical example of what it means to me.

Eze 47:9 And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the rivers go, will live. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters go there; for they will be healed, and everything will live wherever the river goes......... Eze 47:11 But the miry places thereof and the marshes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

What we see here in the prophet's vision is the power of the Holy Spirit going forth, flowing out, always moving, always fresh always healing. In comparison we see what happens in the miry places, in the marshes where the water does not flow. It becomes stagnant and in those places there is no healing and it slowly turns to salt and all life eventually dies. This is such a stark difference. On the one hand we have on either side of the flowing river, evergreen trees, like the trees from Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. On the other hand we have stagnant pools that go nowhere and are slowly dying or dead. There is no life in the miry places, there is no life in the marshes. This, to me, represents the Christian organizations of the world, the denominations.

In all things and at all times the Holy Spirit must be preeminent. If He is not then your church or your organization is dying. Now a dying man can look very healthy is that not right? It all depends upon where he is in the dying process. Initially there may be no outward signs at all ,yet over time he begins to succumb to death. In regard to organizations this process may take days, months , years or even century's. An unknown author write the following which I subscribe to................

"There are many classifications into which men and women may be divided-upper, middle or lower class; rich, well to do and poor; religious, sceptical and atheist;... and so forth and so on. But as I think, the only categorization which really matters is that which divides men as between Servants of the Spirit and Prisoners of the Organization. That classification which cuts right across all other classifications, is indeed a fundamental one. The idea, the inspiration, originates in the internal world, the world of the Spirit... the idea having embodied itself in the organization, the organization then proceeds gradually to slay the idea which gave it birth.

In the field of religion a prophet, an inspired man will see a vision of truth. He expresses that vision as best he may in words. Upon what his disciples understand of the prophets message an organization, a church is built. The half understood message in crystalized into a creed. Before long the principal concern of the church will be to sustain itself as an organization."

You see, the moment the vision is shared and the people stop along the way and construct a structure or an organization in honor of the vision rather than simply moving forward on the current of the vision to the next vision, death begins its process in the marshes and the miry static places that many of us now call houses of worship. The preeminency of the Holy Spirit, of Jesus in our midst, is quite simply the current that keeps us moving and brings life to everything that it touches. The vision of a man or organization that usurps the preeminent Christ whether willingly or unwittingly is already in the process of dying.

As the life of the Spirit wanes in the gathering then it must be gradually replaced by the passion of a man or a group. Rather than entering into His presence people begin to be entertained. They become spectators and not participators and begin to slowly. All over the land the gathering places are in the process of death, various stages perhaps, but death none the less. Outside of being a servant to the Holy Spirit and the preeminency of Jesus there is only death, no matter how skillfully it is covered up and masked, it is death by any other name. We shall be servants of the Holy Spirit or we shall be prisoners of the organization but we cannot be both............bro Frank

Yes Lord Jesus.

Thanks for the word Frank.

I also think of William Booth, the Wesley’s, Menno Simmons, Calvin, Lutheran, etc. and what we read and know of their life in the Holy Spirit. Then, we see the organizations that followed and were built upon man’s foundation and not upon Jesus Christ’s foundation. Even today when we attend Christian meetings or conferences we sometimes speak about the speaker and not about what the Holy Spirit and the Head of the body of Christ is speaking.

According to the scriptures let each one take care how he builds upon a foundation:

"4 For when one says, "I follow Paul,” and another, "I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw”” 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future””all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3).

Ken writes......

"I also think of William Booth, the Wesley’s, Menno Simmons, Calvin, Lutheran, etc. and what we read and know of their life in the Holy Spirit. Then, we see the organizations that followed and were built upon man’s foundation and not upon Jesus Christ’s foundation. Even today when we attend Christian meetings or conferences we sometimes speak about the speaker and not about what the Holy Spirit and the Head of the body of Christ is speaking."

Amen, these are good examples brother.........bro Frank

Travis writes.........

"I was just reading Frank Bartleman's accounts of Azusa Street last night. His message was exactly what you just said. It is Christ who is the head of the church, and He directs His body through the Holy Spirit."

Amen, Christ indeed is the head of His Church and must be preeminent............bro Frank

Colin writes.......

"Let us offer ourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness."

Amen brother......bro Frank

You see, the moment the vision is shared and the people stop along the way and construct a structure or an organization in honor of the vision rather than simply moving forward on the current of the vision to the next vision, death begins its process in the marshes and the miry static places that many of us now call houses of worship. The preeminency of the Holy Spirit, of Jesus in our midst, is quite simply the current that keeps us moving and brings life to everything that it touches. The vision of a man or organization that usurps the preeminent Christ whether willingly or unwittingly is already in the process of dying.

Brother,

Of course I agree that if people are just seeking to keep an organization or church traditions going without any personal connection with God, it is death to those people as they are not in contact with the Head. But the organization of the Church itself is ordained of God who wrote by the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures. So the organization itself is not wrong it is the problem of not being in fellowship with the organizer!

God's intention is for us to follow His commands, the way of Christ. His words are not optional or for our interpretation but obedience. Along with the writings of the apostles by the Holy Spirit we find what God intends for us as the Church (the Kingdom of God).

All groups such as Waldensians followed the Scriptures with Biblical elders, Lords Supper, Head Coverings, Following the Teachings of Christ literally, etc.

Greg writes......

"Of course I agree that if people are just seeking to keep an organization or church traditions going without any personal connection with God, it is death to those people as they are not in contact with the Head."

It is not about " contact with the head." If the Lord is preeminent in anyone;s life they will experience His presence. It is about the preeminence of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. If men are in charge, and God knows, then whatever the gathering is, whatever the name of the gathering or the denomination is, death is overtaking it. It is not about an organization itself being right or wrong, it is about whether one follows the Holy Spirit, is a servant of the Holy Spirit. If he or she is not, then that one is a prisoner to "the organization," whatever organization that is......bro Frank

Marvin writes........

"Men fight hard for organizations,
Men love the admiration of other men
Men enjoy the success of numbers, finances, buildings, converts, teens and children in their organization."

Yes indeed and it is wearisome to the soul and in most cases is the exact opposite of us decreasing and the Lord increasing.....His preeminence. I agree with what you said about 15 seconds and have first hand experience of this which is fine, the truth is the truth and one stands or falls upon what we do with and how we handle the truth......bro Frank

I must examine myself first according to the faith, to Christ, the scriptures and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit of God.

When I and anybody else is commenting about other denominations, churches, etc.; I have to ask myself: Am I (we) holding up a higher standard? Am I (we) demonstrating the power of God in our lives as Paul describes:

"1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God" (1 Cor. 2).

"The Book of Acts is original, spontaneous, and powerful. It is a glory. It is utterly unique in every situation, given by God at that moment. We need to be restored to that high and holy standard, even if it costs us everything””our buildings, our programs, our choirs, our amplifiers, and our guitars””all of it!" (Katz, 1977, A Man in Whom the Spirit of God is).

Are we known in hell? Do the demons know our names?

"If I'm not known in hell, I'm not worth a hill of beans much good. The demon said Jesus I know and Paul I know (Acts 19:15). (Is there any better compliment than this?)" (Ravenhill).

"Many pastors criticize me for taking the Gospel so seriously. But do they really think on Judgment Day, Christ will chastise me, saying, "Leonard, you took Me too seriously"(Ravenhill).

It is not about an organization itself being right or wrong, it is about whether one follows the Holy Spirit, is a servant of the Holy Spirit. If he or she is not, then that one is a prisoner to "the organization," whatever organization that is......bro Frank

Brothers,

we have to think hard that the New Testament was not of single believers but of groups of saints with leadership over them. Being led of the Holy Spirit does not mean anti-obedience or anti-structure,as we clearly see structure of the Church in the book of Acts and Epistles.

The Church God desires is an obedient Church following in His ways. I would argue there is "one" organization, it is the Scriptural Church that the Holy Spirit gives us in the New Testament. Remnant groups and in the beginning mainstream christianity (as all were one in the beginning) have always sought and followed after the true pattern of the Church.

Looking at any group from the Paulicians to the Waldensians to the Anabaptists and onward they were very structured and sought by the Holy Spirit to obey Scriptures and their Lord.

So it can be asked in our day are we willing to obey the Lord and Scriptures and gather as the New Testament Church or are we going to say that all is essentially wrong and not gather with others. My point is that there is always an "organization" the Church is not like the wind or sand, it has structure and godly principles that God led for us to follow. Of course there are those who mis-represent the Church but that is our choice in all generations to follow with "others" in the way that all have followed before, God is not leading to isolation for saints or a wilderness, all remnant groups in the past that God worked in became established and gave testmony for "their generation" of a God who calls out a "Church" (group of people for His purpose).

Greg writes....

"we have to think hard that the New Testament was not of single believers but of groups of saints with leadership over them. Being led of the Holy Spirit does not mean anti-obedience or anti-structure,as we clearly see structure of the Church in the book of Acts and Epistles."

That is simply tired old cliches and straw men. The greatest and most precise view that we have of a New Testament church and its structure does not come from the church fathers, so called, it comes from 1 Cor 14. Almost every single gathering today denies the Word of God by their in-actions and disobedience of clearly laid out directions and structure from God Himself. If men want to stick to the structures of men and be prisoners of the organization, that is fine, we do have free will. If saints would be servants of the Holy Spirit they would gather Biblically and meet in obedience to the Word of God, not the notions of men. Greg, you were priveleged to be part of such meetings a couple of years ago in Missouri........bro Frank

There has to be the simplicity in Christ and those who have come to know the person of Christ and have chosen to remain in Christ and fellowship with those who will encourage others in the obedience of the faith, in Christ alone. What we see today in Western churches is confusion, disorder, division and the lack of the Holy prescence of God. For those of us who have tasted of the Lord we find it hard to fellowship with those who are in bondage to the organization and not bondslaves of Jesus Christ. I need my brethren in Christ, but do I need to submit to manmade authority, which boasts in man and not in the cross? Christ had promised to build His church and He is building it. However, where can you point me to a local body of Christ who is not a slave to man, does not boast in man, slave to taxes, slave to denominational hierarchy, slave to building expenses, slave to salaries, etc.? But instead a local body who does not fear man, but fears God because they are gathering in His Holy presence. Please point me in the direction of an anointed local body of Christ.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

"18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord””(1 Cor. 1).

Bro Ken writes........

"There has to be the simplicity in Christ and those who have come to know the person of Christ and have chosen to remain in Christ and fellowship with those who will encourage others in the obedience of the faith, in Christ alone. What we see today in Western churches is confusion, disorder, division and the lack of the Holy prescence of God. For those of us who have tasted of the Lord we find it hard to fellowship with those who are in bondage to the organization and not bondslaves of Jesus Christ. I need my brethren in Christ, but do I need to submit to manmade authority, which boasts in man and not in the cross? Christ had promised to build His church and He is building it. However, where can you point me to a local body of Christ who is not a slave to man, does not boast in man, slave to taxes, slave to denominational hierarchy, slave to building expenses, slave to salaries, etc.? But instead a local body who does not fear man, but fears God because they are gathering in His Holy presence. Please point me in the direction of an anointed local body of Christ."

Amen brother. You can imagine those who worshiped at the temple of Dan, slandering those who refused to join in with something that had clearly mixed in the world with the truth and had come up with something full of idolatry........bro Frank

This is another sad thread with no edification.
Frank, you are just leading us around in a circle and you don't have a balanced scriptural view.

Greg writes....

"we have to think hard that the New Testament was not of single believers but of groups of saints with leadership over them. Being led of the Holy Spirit does not mean anti-obedience or anti-structure,as we clearly see structure of the Church in the book of Acts and Epistles." This is 100% correct !
Acts 2:41 Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day. 42They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Paul established congregations and appointed elders.

Quote: " It is Christ who is the head of the church..." I don't think there is anybody here who would disagree.
Christ is the head of an organisation which we now call "church". HE has given us instructions how to build it.

Quote: "I also think of William Booth, the Wesley’s, Menno Simmons, Calvin, Lutheran, etc. and what we read and know of their life in the Holy Spirit. Then, we see the organizations that followed and were built upon man’s foundation and not upon Jesus Christ’s foundation.

As a result of those men and the organisations they started millions were probably saved.
We have no right to sit on our computers and critisising those men while our own churches in the west are divided and full of compromises etc.

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.Ephesians 5:21

Markuskiwi writes........

"Paul established congregations and appointed elders."

Yes he did and no one would deny that, to say otherwise is just silly, but he also instructed us about how we should gather ( see 1 Cor 14)

"Christ is the head of an organisation which we now call "church"

Christ is the head of a Body, not an organization.

"As a result of those men and the organisations they started millions were probably saved."

The error of that statement should be apparent to most.

""We have no right to sit on our computers and critisising those men"

No one criticized these men, quite the opposite. You may want to re-read the original post and see that it is not these men that were critiqued, it was those who followed them or misunderstood them who became prisoners of an organization of their own making. Let us focus on the subject that was raised in the OP and let us not make overarching statements such as "This is another sad thread with no edification." It is just such a statement that is not edifying and merely a personal opinion.......bro Frank

There are obviously dear and precious saints in the denominational churches in my local city and cities all across America. However, how many of them are only members of the denomination and/or organization instead of solely bond-slaves of Jesus Christ? Where in scripture does it tell us to submit to an organization? Paul said follow me as I follow Christ and did he not leave the denominations and organizations of his day to follow Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit? Did not Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc., leave the establishment and organizations to follow after Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit? Do saints today also do the same? Hence, the reason I am posting again on SI for the the first time in years is because I love the saints and want to follow Christ and the Holy Spirit as did the saints of old until Christ does as He promised and builds His church in our local community. I testify before the Lord that I am posting to build up and not tear down the body of Christ. As the brother wrote we are "to submit to one another.” So I ask brother, please point me to a local body where my wife and I can do the following according to scriptures:

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

".. In the same way you younger men must submit to your elders; and all of you must gird yourselves with humility towards one another, for God sets Himself against ..”

"Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account.”

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”

"Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance
against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.”

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

"Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. ... Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.”

"For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.”

"... But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another...”