The church isn't this and the church isn't that!

I'm in a season where it seems I am more sensitive to church bashing than I have ever been. There are reasons for that and I am hoping I am at least seeing a bit of truth imparted from the Spirit. It just seems though there are a lot of voices pronouncing woe and coming judgment on the church. The reasons given are usually along the lines of, "The church isn't what it is supposed to be." Or, "The church has become apostate etc." These one size fits all blanket accusations just don't go in my opinion. The apostate church, obviously alive and growing today, is not the true church and congregation God has set aside for Himself. It's even being proposed that the wickedness in society is the church's fault. I know the church has not been perhaps the witness it should be but to lay the blame for society's evil at the feet of the church is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

So church bashing has become an activity where folks and believers begin to see the church after the flesh ONLY. Brow beating the church becomes the in vogue fad. Why stop at the church's faults is what I am wondering. Bob Mumford once said he didn't need to be preached at that he needs to love. He said he knows he needs to love. What he said he needs to be preached to about is HOW to love. He said since he knows he needs to love that he wishes someone would take the word of God and instruct him on how to love. The same with the church's faults in my opinion. I know the church has faults and may not be all that is supposed to be. I've got that part so now would you take the word of God and instruct and teach me from the word HOW the church can become what as you say it is supposed to be. Should diatribes against the flesh of the church continue minus any exhortation as to what the church of the Spirit is and how it functions? If the current stream of church bashers, speaking only condemnation with no godly exhortation, love the diatribes and pronouncements of coming judgment more than sound instruction aren't they in reality part of the problem? If the church has all these problems then why not take the word of God and teach me the remedy for these problems.

Christ died for His Church, the Bride. He is in an everlasting covenant with her and will never leave or forsake the church. We need remember this and lay off the Bride a bit. God is well able to perfect that which He has begun.

"and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." (Matt 28:20)

"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6)

Well stated David. I agree 100%.

It is easy and lazy to bash. Teaching takes work.

Through no fault of their own, because of when they were born, many christians today have no idea what Christianity looked like 100 years ago. Or a 1000 years ago.

The good old days were simpler in many ways, so it is not surprising that christians these days have limited concept of how to lay down their life daily.

Sadly, I used to be the church's worst critic but in the midst of that, the Lord still loved ME!! When we "receive the love of the Truth...," (2 Thess 2:10) He can still speak to us, open our eyes and show us His great love for His creation and that even He has hope for us!

Carter Conlon said on Tuesday night 10/03/2017, "...I've come to know who God is. I've come to understand; as you get older, the one thing you learn about God is above everything else, is how merciful He is."

I mean, if He hasn't given up on me, then He is Hope Himself!! :)

God bless,
Lisa

Here is Carter Conlon's video sermon of last Tuesday night:

On Thoughts and Prayer 10/03/2017
http://www.tscnyc.org/media_center.php?pg=sermons&spg=t7pm&mi=48216

Dear Brother,
David,

I know I have talked extensively about 'The resurrected Lord,in us,in our every day, ..every way, ..Life, ......The Life of God in us.

Has that offended you ?

I do not deliberately try to offend anyone.

Here is a man,..I have found,....Major Ian Thomas, that preaches / teaches, on the Resurrected Life of Jesus, in us.

Are you familiar with him ?

Am sharing my 'GOOD MORNING' ...this morning,..hope it comforts and blesses you also.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZLZu2XiyGk&feature=share
"Saving Life of Christ" Mayor Ian Thomas, Part 1

Note: I believe there are at least (4) in a series of this message.

And,..another joy I share W/you...

'A Grain of Wheat'-Major IanThomas 1/5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIM-KS3sfhk&feature=share

Lovingly always,
-----------------
elizabeth

I posted this in the Church bashing thread as well. It is a simple thing, before bashing the Church, just examine what you have contributed for the Church in your locality? Have you tried to gather people for Christ's sake? Are you at least taking efforts to build the pure representation of Christ's bride in your locality? The answer will be NO if they were honest. They are like unmarried people teaching how to live a married life! Like barren women who teach how to raise up Children!

I am actively involved in building up a local Church. We are moving towards being the fully functional body of Christ. But the more I work in the local Church, I gain respect for the organized Church which has fallen short of glory of God. For example only when you try to raise of Children, you start to respect your parents for the work they have done, even though they have failed in many areas. I try my best to help the organized churches in my locality as well.

During the time of Martin Luther, where was the church then

Is all the church the visible church?

In answer to your question, Dominic,
As to where was The church in.....

The Lord has never lost His Seed,...and He will never lose His Seed,..there will always be The Seed of His true church.

----------------🍞
elizabeth

In order to avoid contention concerning this subject one must define the terms that you have questions about.

The definition of church is?

The definitions of other words that are associated with the word church?

Then let everyone know the way you are wanting to proceed with the subject once you have established the way you define the word church.

From a biblical perspective, a definition of the church and what it consists of is not that difficult. The difference between the true church of Christ, His Bride, and those with a profession only would be one of regeneration. One is regenerated and the other is not. Many church critics these days are lumping and melding together the regenerated born again body of believer who remain true and seek to follow Christ daily with the apostate church. One is regenerated while the other is not so the comparison is not valid in my opinion.

Elibeth,

Nothing you have said about resurrected life has offended me. We all should be seeking to serve Christ in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter. Experiencing resurrection life and its enablement should be our goal.

Thank you, Bro,...I was concerned.
Sorry. .. not to write more,....much work today.

Blessings,

---------------
elizabeth

You say: Church is -one-a group-that has been regenerated.

When you speak of church: Are you also meaning a group that meets at a certain location with a paid pastor or unpaid, but a pastor that is the leader, on a certain day week in and week out, a statement of faith that must be adhered to to be a member, deacons, boards, and the "others" that are considered a visitor until they sign the membership agreement, clergy/laity distinctions? Is the end goal of building up the church another building on the corner represented by the above mentioned details?

I am NOT bashing or patronizing. I am just wanting to understand what EXACTLY you.... and others really mean when using the word church. This could be helpful in the discussion.

If your definition of church INCLUDES the above mentioned descriptions and you cannot see the church in any other form than the above mentioned descriptions then that would be helpful to know, so that those of us(or just me) who believe the church DOES NOT have to be represented by the above mentioned details (other than regeneration) might choose to be silent, or define our terms when we are referencing the church, so that we would not be considered as bashers or unmarried people teaching how to live a married life! Like barren women who teach how to raise up Children!"

It truly can be a privilege to delve into the grammar of a subject, so that we can find the precise point of disagreement by going back to the last point of agreement. This point of agreement is where common ground can be found and then figure out the solutions to your original question: Would you take the word of God and instruct and teach me from the word HOW the church can become what as you say it is supposed to be?

IMO this is where unity begins and we all can learn in a positive environment what each other is REALLY trying to say.

The meaning of the church is basically a group of people who have been delivered from this present evil age (Galatians 1:4) and its evil god (II Corinthians 4:4) because they have been regenerated and born again in Christ. Even as their sins and iniquities have been washed clean by the atoning blood of Christ. Their old man has been replaced by the new man in Christ within them which was created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:24). They have faith that on the cross Christ became a curse for them and bore their sinfulness so that they might receive His righteousness.

/When you speak of church: Are you also meaning a group that meets at a certain location with a paid pastor or unpaid, but a pastor that is the leader, on a certain day week in and week out, a statement of faith that must be adhered to to be a member, deacons, boards, and the "others" that are considered a visitor until they sign the membership agreement, clergy/laity distinctions? Is the end goal of building up the church another building on the corner represented by the above mentioned details?/

Local congregations of believers assemble regularly in all types of places as they follow the biblical admomnition to not forsake the assembling of themselves together all the more as we see that "the day" is approaching. Where they meet and how they meet in my opinion is not as important as how they view Calvary and what they are on the inside.

/If your definition of church INCLUDES the above mentioned descriptions and you cannot see the church in any other form than the above mentioned descriptions then that would be helpful to know, so that those of us(or just me) who believe the church DOES NOT have to be represented by the above mentioned details (other than regeneration) might choose to be silent, or define our terms when we are referencing the church, so that we would not be considered as bashers or unmarried people teaching how to live a married life! Like barren women who teach how to raise up Children!"/

I agree that those things you describe do not have to be part of what one means by church but I also do not believe that they automatically render a local assembly as null and void as far as the meaning of being a church (assembling on a regular basis) goes. I'm not too much into them myself. Ye,t if they are not necessary for a local congregation they also does not necessarily kill a local assembly as many seem to presuppose. Acceptance by faith of Calvary and its work leading to cleansing from sin and the renewal and rebirth of the inner man is what sets aside the true church. This type of people (new creations in Christ) are rescued and saved from this age and are the people the Lord sets aside for Himself as they attempt to place the cross front and center in their personal and corporate lives together. When and where a local congregation meets and whether their pastor is paid or not paid etc. then become secondary issues.

Are you part of a local congregation yourself?

Peace and blessings.

ekklésia
http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm

qahal
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6951.htm

Is a church a church if it comprimises the Gospel or does not open a bible during a sermon, Is a christian a christian if he does not follow Christ.

Do we have churches that are merely Social Centres rather than Churches as they are merely entertaining and not actually exegetiting the word of God are they churche

2 Timothy 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Galatians 1Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) 2 and all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 and profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. 20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not. 21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia; 22 and was unknown by face unto the churches of Judæa which were in Christ: 23 but they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. 24 And they glorified God in me.

If a church preaches a different Gospel is that a church?

CHURCH, THE I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18. Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Matt. 28:20. Greet the church that is in their house. Rom. 16:5. You are the body of Christ, and members individually. 1 Cor. 12:27. There is one body and one Spirit. Eph. 4:4. He, therefore, who does not assemble with the church, has even by this displayed his pride, and he has condemned himself. Ignatius (c. 105, E),

1.51. Wherever the bishop appears, let the congregation be there also. Just as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.90.

Bercot, David W., editor. Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (Kindle Locations 5661-5669). Hendrickson Pub. Kindle Edition.

Those who have believed on the Lord through His Son, and are clothed with these spirits, will become one spirit, one body. Furthermore, the color of their garments will be one. Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.48.

All the nations that dwell under heaven were called by hearing and believing upon the name of the Son of God. Having, therefore, received the seal, they had one understanding and one mind. And their faith became one, and their love one.

Hermas (c. 150, W), 2.50. The world is driven and tempest-tossed by sins. Therefore, God has given to it assemblies””we mean holy churches””in which survive the doctrines of the truth. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.100. Although dispersed

Bercot, David W., editor. Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs (Kindle Locations 5678-5683). Hendrickson Pub. Kindle Edition.

I will reply Docs as soon as I can. Thank you for keeping up the conversation.

Christ died for His Church, the Bride. He is in an everlasting covenant with her and will never leave or forsake the church. We need remember this and lay off the Bride a bit. God is well able to perfect that which He has begun.
Brother I am in agreement with this.. If people are bashing the Church then they are bashing Christ.. I refer to the book of Revelation..
Many warnings were given.. One comes to mind.
If Christ is the head.. of the church and people keep seeing the imperfections how does Christ feel??
Im sorry but i have been in many churches.. I am not condoning churches that do not preach the word of GOD.
God is bigger than criticism.. One day I was done with the church.. The LORDS showed me it was a spirit of OFFENSE that hit me and the LORD TOLD ME.. THE GIFTS HE GAVE ME WERE HIS GIFTS FOR HIS HOUSE.. I WAS TO FOCUS ON JESUS.
So when I see a post like this it tickles my heart. I just finished a prayer walk with three other believers.. WE are the church.. Im believing for revival. im standing on
the Message to the church of Philadelphia.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
I dont know about anyone else on this forum but I want to be an overcomer.. I want the LORD to put His name upon me.. I want to be a pillar.. I WANT TO BE HOLIER THAN I AM NOW, i WANT TO BE TRUER THAN i AM NOW AND i WANT TO HAVE THE KEY OF DAVID..
David knew he sinned and learned from it.. HE REPENTED AND KEPT GOING AFTER GOD>.
I pray brothers and sisters see the CHURCH IS NOT PERFECT. AS SOON AS I GET THERE.. JESUS IS..
I am going to continue to focus on JESUS PERIOD.. I AM GOING TO FOCUS ON JESUS IN ALL MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
ITS TIME i BELIEVE FOR THE CHURCH to go outside the walls and arise..
A sister focusing on JESUS the head of the church.
In Christ
Frannie

As I work with the local church i sense my need for other brothers and sisters. The church is my family. Im believing for my biological family to have JESUS for eternity..
Meanwhile I am believing for the Lord to continue to work on my heart, my issues and if the enemy can get any of us sheep.. to be isolated he has us..
We are all dumb sheep. We need each other in this army to help one another to see the enemy coming..
We overcome him by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB AND THE WORD OF OUR TESTIMONY.....

Revelation 12: 11-12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

THE devil is a liar and JESUS died for His church and He is truth.. It matters what JESUS thinks of us alone..
In Christ
Sister Frannie

"quote: The meaning of the church is basically a group of people who have been delivered from this present evil age (Galatians 1:4) and its evil god (II Corinthians 4:4) because they have been regenerated and born again in Christ. Even as their sins and iniquities have been washed clean by the atoning blood of Christ. Their old man has been replaced by the new man in Christ within them which was created in righteousness and true holiness (Ephesians 4:24). They have faith that on the cross Christ became a curse for them and bore their sinfulness so that they might receive His righteousness."

Definitely a point of agreement! I believe I am a part of anyone that defines their life by the above process. I may have fellowship with that person for a short period like for a talk in a store or restaurant or standing in line where God has so obviously assembled us together for that moment to bless each other or challenge each other or start a new friendship. Or a longer period of time where a friendship has formed and God has led us to assemble for a book study or bible study or prayer BUT not to start a new movement or organization. This may be for a short season or longer one. There again the main approach is listening to the Father and only doing what He designs.

quote: "Local congregations of believers assemble regularly in all types of places as they follow the biblical admomnition to not forsake the assembling of themselves together all the more as we see that "the day" is approaching. Where they meet and how they meet in my opinion is not as important as how they view Calvary and what they are on the inside."

Another point of agreement: This is one of my main objectives: is for the body of Christ to see that the body can function anywhere or anytime, just like I mentioned above. Assembling together doesn't mean to me that a group of people that are acquainted meet together one day a week and look at the back of each others heads and may at some point have a meet and greet or an occasional meal together. Yes, friendships can form and collaborations on projects can happen, those are better descriptions of the body imo.

Why do most "church" goers only see that the body can only function on a certain day or only with a pastor? The body can be SO, SO much more. I really cannot find anywhere in the Bible for the sunday "church" model that is operating today. But what I do see in scripture is a body that functions more like a family that loves and lives as one that is loved. A healthy family is pure joy to see. People loving. Each person having their gift and living in it and sharing it. People sharing life. People growing more dependent on Christ and not a person to feed them. Letting Christ form and assemble people together any day and anytime. To see HIS CHURCH forming all around me everyday or anytime I see people loving in His name. A place where one feels the freedom to share doubts and fears. A place for true relationships that are held together by the Holy Spirits leading and not anything less. Where differences are expected and respected.

"Extravagant love-not imposed order-is the nature of His
church. That's why His church is a family: a Father inviting us to take our place in His home; an older brother Jesus, who empathizes with our struggles and offers us grace in time of need; a Spirit who empowers us; and brothers and sisters who can live alongside us with love and honor. The church reflects the best of what a family can be. It is less concerned with conformity than it is with creating a safe environment where people can be open and honest, even confessional, because they know we are all in the struggle together. Its people won't have to boast about their strengths nor hide weaknesses, and others won't try to fix them with advice or tell them what they should think or how they should feel." Finding Church, Wayne Jacobsen. An excellent description of the body imo.

As I stated before on the other thread that was deemed as bashing. Is this: "My only challenge to every follower of Christ: Is Jesus your everything? Is the Holy Spirit teaching you? Are you searching the scriptures on your own? Can you establish your beliefs with just the Bible and the Holy Spirit and nothing else? Are you able to distinguish your beliefs from a man made statement of belief? Have you set down and questioned EVERYTHING that you believe and answer those question with NO preconceived lens from man's interpretations?
If this is what your life in Christ looks like then HALLELUJAH!"

My dream is for believers to see past the building, see past the pastor, see past the denomination, see past the organization, and begin to see Christ's body taking shape all around you, begin to love like He did, begin to know Him like He knew the Father, begin to be led by His spirit.

quote: "Are you part of a local congregation yourself?"

I have been out of the Sunday building for 8-9 years but have never in my live of 46 years felt more apart of His body than I do now. He has shown me that it is more free, more loving, more relational than when I was trying to reconstruct a pattern inside certain parameters that man has been trying to establish for centuries. I assemble together with other believers where ever the Father directs...sometimes that is in my house with a small group or just one or two of us having tea or a dinner. Or the rare occasion He directs us to the sunday building for a visit.

One of your original questions: "Would you take the word of God and instruct and teach me from the word HOW the church can become what as you say it is supposed to be?"

For Christ's body to be what it is supposed to be imo it must first learn how to live as His beloved. To first have the deep revelation that He first loved us-beyond the initial salvation experience- then ask Him to teach us how to live out from that love toward each other. As Wayne J says "in the old creation people tend to be more self-focused; trying to BE loved, rather than LOVING others."

There are a few scriptures on certain ideas of how a meeting can go, but I see no where other than the OT where there are explicit "rules" on how to worship and meet. How can a family truly live as a family when their time together is planned out on a typed itinerary that is handed out at the door when you enter the gathering or a self imposed/expected order of events in a set amount of time each time they meet? This sounds preposterous to me when you think about it in the context of a family gathering or time spent with friends building relationships.

blessings!!!