The First Resurrection

...I started a discussion on this very subject. The bible says what it says and you got it correct. It's not mysterious, it just says what it says. Where we have problems is that others of renoun have taught differently. I'll take the Word of God over the teaching of man.This scripture just blows "pre-trib" rapture out of the water as well. There can only be one "first resurrection". This is clearly at the end of the trib. So it is then that the dead in Christ shall rise first, not at the beginning of the trib.If someone else knows how to find the other thread here, I'd appreciate you putting up the link. Thanks.In Him,lahry

Be careful with this one. Yes it means first. But these are jews spoken of here. These have an anointing and sanctification from God. If this were not so, you could just throw out the rest of the bible as meaningless. We are not about self righteousness. We are about faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So let Him, the author and finisher of our faith unfold all of this the way He chooses. Be careful.In Him,Lahry

Smokey said:Rev. 14.4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.This verse calls the 144,000 firstfruits. This means first right?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStevers response:Christ is the first of the Firstfruits. He is the first man resurrected from the dead. All believers will be resurrected as well, and be part of the Firstfruits (of the Resurrection)- THE FIRST RESURRECTION.Jesus resurrected from the dead on Sunday, the feast of Firstfruits. This is what Jesus Christ had to say about those who are resurrected into eternal life- they are sexless, like the Angels. They are "virgins" in their new resurrected bodies, to say the least:Matthew 22:30 " 30. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."Also, since they are from the 12 Tribes, they will all be Jewish believers, that believed in Messiah, and have been resurrected from the dead towards the end of the 7 year tribulation. When did they originally die? The text is not clear if they had died long ago, or during the Tribulation.All Christian believers will be raptured before the Tribulation, and will also be part of the Firstfruits of the resurrection. But this reference in Revelation 14 (the 144,0000) is in regards to Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. There will also be another resurrection (part of the "First Resurrection") after the Tribulation, for all believers (many of them being Jews) that have been martyred during the Tribulation--This is also part of the Firstfruits (of the Resurrection)- all part of the First Resurrection, starting with Christ! The Firstfruits of the Resurrection is a continuous feast, started on the 17th of Abib, Sunday, the Feast of Firstfruits, the first day of the week when Jesus Resurrected, over 2,000 years ago!God bless,SteverP.S.Revelation 20:3-5 explains the Resurrection (again, part of the "First Resurrection") that takes place right after the Tribulation, afer Satan is thrown in the bottomless pit:3. And cast him (Satan) into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Lahry wrote:This scripture just blows "pre-trib" rapture out of the water as well. There can only be one "first resurrection". This is clearly at the end of the trib. So it is then that the dead in Christ shall rise first, not at the beginning of the trib.If someone else knows how to find the other thread here, I'd appreciate you putting up the link. Thanks.In Him,lahryxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:The Firstfruits of the Resurrection:1 Cor 15:20:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.1 Thes 4:16-1716. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.The Firstfruits is the resurrection from the dead of believers in Jesus Christ. Those that believed God and the Messiah to come that lived and died before the Cross, as well as those that believed God and the Messiah that came, and lived and died ( and some still living) after the Cross will all be RESURRECTED IN THEIR OWN ORDER.God bless,Stever

You are not holding fast to what is written in my humble opinion. You are holding on to what you have been taught.Paul said, the dead in Christ will rise first. 99.9999% of the "believers" in this country will tell you that these are everyone who has died a believer since Jesus rose from the dead. Is that so? Most will tell you that this is at the rapture of the church and at the beginning of the trib. Is that what it says?How many "first resurrections" can there be? The one in Rev. 20 is clearly after the trib. It clearly defines who will be resurrected. The rest will have to wait for the end of the millineum. That's what the bible says. Most of what you say cannot be supported by scripture and tied to a "pre-trib" event. The bible simply does not say that. To anyone who wants to dig it up, the history of "pre-trib" rapture can easily be traced back to man, about the 16th or 17th century. Before that, it was not heard of or taught anywhere. None of the early church "fathers" mentioned it. I admonish you both in love, let the Holy Spirit through what the bible says mold and fashion your theology. You'll be glad and blessed that you did. Hugs in Christ Jesus,Lahry

Lahry said:Paul said, the dead in Christ will rise first. 99.9999% of the "believers" in this country will tell you that these are everyone who has died a believer since Jesus rose from the dead. Is that so? Most will tell you that this is at the rapture of the church and at the beginning of the trib. Is that what it says?Stever's response:Lahry, who exactly is Christ? Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the seed of the woman. As far as your statement that I am only spewing out here the doctrine of men, I have to disagree with you. The Doctrine that I have provided here comes directly from the Old and the New Testament. Most Christians spend no time in the Old Testament, but Christ, as well as the Disciples used the Old Testament as doctrinal proof that Jesus Christ of Nazareth was the Messiah, the "seed of the woman" that was prophesized throughout the Old Testament. Christ said "in the volume of the Book (the entire Old Testament) it is written of ME!We are saved by ????? Faith in Jesus Christ. Old Testament believers in the Messiah were accounted to be righteous (saved)----How???? By believing God and the Messiah to come.We who live after the Cross are only saved by the works of one man, Jesus Christ the God Man. We perform no "works" to be saved. We are saved by our belief and faith in the works of Jesus Christ. That is what sanctifies us, that is what saves us. We today are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, witnesses that are ALL Old Testament Saints, Old Testament Believers in the Messiah to come. Men like Moses, Abraham, King David, Samuel, Jonah, Isaiah. Do you consider your walk with God today to be on equal footing with their walk? I only wish that I had the walk of David, or Abraham, or Moses. How about you, do you feel the same?Do you remember, after the crucifixion & resurrection about how Christ led "captivity captive"? Ephesians 4:8-10 " 8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"These people held captive are believers in the Messaih to come, that had died and descended to Abraham's Bosom. He spent 3 days and 3 nights down there witnessing to them, and took them all to heaven with him. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This situation could not take place until sin was dealt with, until sin was paid for in full. Once that happened one of the first things He (Christ) did was to bring the believers from the Old Testament back to heaven with Him. When we die, if we do so before the Rapture, then we will be immediately in His presence as well, right along all of the Old Testament believers- Samson, Jepthae, Noah, Abel and others.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxLahry said:How many "first resurrections" can there be? The one in Rev. 20 is clearly after the trib. It clearly defines who will be resurrected. The rest will have to wait for the end of the millineum. That's what the bible says. Most of what you say cannot be supported by scripture and tied to a "pre-trib" event. The bible simply does not say that. Stever's response:Again, you are not understanding what I said and the Bible Verses I quoted to back it up. There is only one "First Resurrection" to eternal life. Christ is part of the First Resurrection and started it---we after Him are part of it as well. To make it more understandable, the First Resurrection is an EVENT that started with Christ resurrecting from the dead (to eternal life), and will end with the last person resurrected from the dead and raised to eternal life. This "resurrection to eternal life" takes place at different times, but they are all part of the same EVENT:1 Cor 15:20:20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 21. For since by man came death, by MAN (JESUS CHRIST) CAME ALSO THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.22. For as in Adam all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.23. But every man in his OWN ORDER: CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS; A F T E R W A R D (afterward) they that are Christ's at his coming.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Lahry said:To anyone who wants to dig it up, the history of "pre-trib" rapture can easily be traced back to man, about the 16th or 17th century. Before that, it was not heard of or taught anywhere. None of the early church "fathers" mentioned it. Stever's response:A thorough read of 1 Thessalonians reveals that Paul wrote this letter to them because of the tremendous persecution that they were going through and their own belief that they had missed the Rapture. Paul himself mentions the rapture here, to the Church at Thessalonica, and tells them not to worry, it is a future event. Please note that this event is not tied to the end of the Tribulation or to end-time events, like you have suggested above. It is an event that can take place at any moment. The Christian is told to keep his eyes on Jesus. The reason for that is the rapture can take place at any time. We are not told to look for the Antichrist, for the re-building of the Temple, or any other events that take place during the Tribulation.Paul tells them that they will be delivered from the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation):1 The 1: 10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.Paul tells them that the rapture will come before the beginning of the "Day of the Lord":1 Thes 5:2 " 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."Paul re-assures them again that God has not appointed them (believers) to the wrath to come (the Great Tribulation): 1 Thes 5:9-11 "9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10. Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."Paul admonishes them, and tells them that they should not be ignorant (because they have been ignorant-thus the purpose of this entire letter to them) of this event, that he (Paul) has already taught tehm before:13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Many wonderful Christian believers (John F. Walvoord being one of them) confuse the separation of the sheep and the goats with the rapture. This event (the separation of the sheep and the goats) takes place at the end of the Tribulation, when Christ comes as a Thief, to kill and destroy (hardly sounds like the glorious event of the Rapture, does it?). The ones taken are the ones (the goats)that will be judged at the Great White Throne, at the end of the 1,000 reign. These are the people that are destroyed by Christ when He comes again to rule and reign on the earth. The ones that are left (the Sheep)will be people of flesh and blood, who came to belief in the Messiah during the Tribulation, and are still alive at the end of the Tribulation (probably most of them will be Jews, who have been supernaturally protected by God) who will enter the millennial reign with Christ for 1,000 years. These are the people of flesh and blood that will not die during this period and will have many, many, many children- billions in fact.XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxGod bless,Steverp.s. The Doctrine of men? The doctrine of men such as Westcott & Hort and other Bible "Scholars" & "Textural Critics" have really been nothing more than infidels and are the ones that have destroyed our understanding of the Bible. The bible is 66 Books written by 40 authors over one thousand five hundred years and are totally consistent and inspired by God. Every Book of the Bible is inspired.Sincerely,Stever

Thank you sir for your post. I almost agree with Roady in that this kind of discussion rarely produces edification. I would ask one favor of you. God back over your post and see how many times you applied the word "rapture" to the scriptures you listed that do not have this word in them. That is searching for scripture to support your doctrine. The old and the new testament both teach of the second coming of Christ. Only one second coming, that being at the end of the tribulation. If you would but consider all the scripture you posted in light of this awesome event and it's revealed time table, you will see the harmony within it all. While it is true that some prophecy is not so easy to fully understand, this scripture in Rev 20 to me is very clear, in it's timing and in it being the "first" resurrection, not "a" resurrection. I don't doubt your zeal or sincerity. I just think you are sincerely wrong and are having difficulty accepting what the bible clearly states as fact. I was raised in religion, where traditions of men had precident over the Holy Bible. Once I read the bible for myself, I had to make a choice, tradition or bible. I chose bible and have never regretted my choice. I dont' know just how it's all going to pan out. But this I do know, it will all come to pass, just like the bible says. And when it says "first resurrection" and this event is clearly written after the tribulation period, I believe it means just that. God bless you and thank you for your comments.In Christ Jesus,Lahry

Lahry said:Thank you sir for your post. I almost agree with Roady in that this kind of discussion rarely produces edification. Stever's response:Dear Lahry:The Pre-Trib, Post-Trib Rapture dispute has been going on for generations. The majority of the Christian body holds to the Pre-Trib position. But, who needs to argue over something that has nothing to do with our salvation, and appears to be impossible for some to reconcile.I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.God bless,Stever

Smokey said:The only issue is the timing of this event... I believe that the pre-tribulation rapture "theory" is just a repeat of the original lie of saten found in Gen.3.4. Stever's response:So, I guess you are saying here that the entire book of 1 Thessalonians can be thrown in the ash can? Have you taken the time to read and study it? It involves new revelation that Paul has been provided by Jesus Christ. The second coming and the rapture are not one and the same event. At the 2nd coming Christ comes with His saints to the earth. At the rapture, He comes to get his saints---his saints meet him in the air and he does not come down to the earth.Paul refers to the Doctrine that he teaches as MY DOCTRINE:2 Timothy 3:10" 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,"2 Timothy 3:16-17 " 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."Paul had a face to face encounter with the risen Christ on the Damascas Road. He was taught by Jesus Christ, face to face for 3 years- 1st in Arabia and then to Damascas- read/study Galatians 1:12-18"12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14. And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days."The point is, this is new revelation, not found in the Old Testament. There is Old Testament teaching about a type of snatching away by force (the Rapture)---when Enoch was walking with God, and then he was not, because God took him. This is really the only "picture" or "Type teaching" of the rapture. Some try to say that the Ark is a picture of the rapture, but it is not. It is a picture of what happened to Shadrack, Meschack & Abedingo in the firery furnace, and also a picture of what will happen to the Jews that will be supernaturally protected by God during the Tribulation.The Rapture is the complete snatching away of the dead in Christ first, and then the living in Christ, that are snatched up to be with the Lord, forever.At the 2nd coming Christ comes with His saints because they are already with Him in heaven:Zech 14:5-7: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.jUDE 1:14-15 " 14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the LORD COMETH WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS, 15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.XXXXXXXXXXSmokey said:If you have a "church" that believes that they will avoid this time of trouble , and go to heaven before trouble starts, you get a "church" like we have now, FAT AND LAZY. Roadsign, you admonished me earlier about basing my question on only one verse of scripture, and not taking into account other similar occurances, I now ask you to do the same thing, and think on these observations on the past workings of God.Stever's response:So, you are saying that Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit is not in control of His own Church? Sounds like you believe that flesh (the power of the will of the believer, not the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit that indwells all believers) has power to perform miracles, to raise the dead, heal the sick, and cast down strongholds?Are we, as Christians supposed to be tough, and strong, and work out with weights, and be in shape? Is all our power in our flesh, or is all of it found in Christ?At the end times, my Bible tells me there will be a falling away. For the past 40 years we (the World) has been in a free fall. It really has nothing to do with the power of our will, or our belief or non-belief in a Pre-Tribulation rapture., or anything else that is in our control. Have you ever read about early America and the Great Awakening? Was that the result of the works of George Whitefield, or was it the result of the works of the Holy Spirit who anointed him.That, my friend, is something to ponder over.God bless,Stever

I still have a question that I posted earlier, that you have never answered, and would appreciate a reply:In regards to the pre-tribulation rapture being in error, then please explain to me why Christ has to come down and separate the sheep from the goats ? They would automatically be separated at the rapture- the dead in Christ rising first, and those (in Christ) that are alive next? Who would be left behind but the Non-believers? There would be no need to separate the Sheep from the Goats if this event occured at the SAME TIME AS THE RAPTURE.God bless,SteverYou are so close, it's almost forrest and trees kind of view. Why would Christ have to seperate the sheep and the goats? Because they have not yet been seperated. When will this occur? At the end of the rapture. Those who are His will rise up into eternal life and those who are not will be lost eternally. Do you think that at "pre-trib" there will be an assembly of "goats" and they will respond "Lord, when did we see you naked"? I don't. But it can fit at the end of the trib, or perhaps even at the end of the millineum. I just can't make it fit at the beginning. You may be right, but what if you're not. What then? See, when you realize that there is only one second coming of Jesus Christ, and one first resurrection, it's not difficult at all to understand the chronological order of events. Jesus comes to seperate us from the lost and reign for a thousand years. He shuts up satan, raises the dead, and gathers those that are His, that is, those who are alive, and those who gave up their lived during the trib for their profession of faith in Christ Jesus. These are the ones who will reign with Him for a thousand years, and the bible clearly says so. Will the dead in Christ include every saint that has died previously? Perhaps. But the Word does not say this. God is not confused, nor is He dismayed. All of these things will happen just as He chooses and probably in some very surprising ways. If Jesus takes the church away tonigh, I'm going with Him. You will probably testify that you are too, and by your testimony I would agree, though my agreement matters nought. But what if the second coming of Jesus is post-trib? Will you have the faith it is going to require to hold fast till "the end"? Will I? I pray we do. How is that faith developed? By waiting for the trip to begin? I think not. I think it must be matured now, while there is yet time. Finally, rapture will mean little to those who are lost today without Christ. Many people here in this country left home this morning and will not return home this evening. Are they ready? Their personal rapture will take place today. Since no man has a promise on tommorrow, you and I may be among them. We must live our lives like today is our last, and the only passion we possess is that of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To God be the glory, now and forever amen.In Him,Lahry