Are Gifts Necessary For Unity ?

Hi
I took this from an earlier Post as I want to emphasis its importance as regard the Gifts.Some People say certain gifts arent for today but the bible is saying unless the gifts are in operation and working well then we are going to lack and will not become mature.

UNITY is mentioned during the all three conversations Paul is having with the gifts.

There are three list of the gifts in one form or another
Romans 12 ,1 Corinthians12 and Ephesians 4

Here are the Unity Scriptures included when Paul is talking about the gifts

Romans 12

"5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members ONE of another.”
1 Cor 12

7 wTo each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the COMMON GOOD.
1 Cor 12:25
25 so that there should be NO DIVISION in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other

1 Ephesians 4

25 so that there should be NO DIVISION in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other
13 until we all attain to THE UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Look at Eph 4:11 its saying that without these gifts we CANNOT BE 1 Equiped 2 Built up 3 Reach Unity In The Faith 4 Or Become Mature

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Its something to really ponder on .......are gifts a necessity for Unity In The Faith ,Will their be division if the gifts arent present?,Will their be immaturity if we dont have gifts working? urs staff

I think that if we look at each of the lists of gifts, we find some marked differences in purpose and function that will be important to this discussion.

Eph. 4: There are five gifts given to the body. These are men who have specific ministry calling and anointing that are given to the body as gifts for the growth and maturity of the body. The unity spoken of here is unity of conviction, belief, and knowledge of God. This is a specific type of unity that centers around faith and doctrine. (I almost hate to use the word doctrine here since many see this as merely an intellectual understanding of scripture. Doctrine is much more than that. Sound and correct doctrine comes as a result of the revelation of the Holy Spirit of the word of God as we grow and develop in intimacy with God. If the Holy Spirit is not the interpreter of scripture, then we will, in our human minds, mess it up every time.)

I have found that these five ministry gifts to the body each have a very specific and unique anointing. As a teacher, I approach my walk with God in a way that is definitely unique. God can be moving in a very powerful way in a service, and I am constantly thinking about scripture and it's application to what is going on around me. When I spend time with God, it seems like my most common way of receiving revelation is directly from the word. God speaks to me through scripture in a way that others do not totally understand sometimes. But that is the calling and anointing that has been placed upon me.

If I were the only ministry gift that was active in my church, we would have a VERY incomplete church. They would receive from me a strong knowledge of the word, and would get the idea that following God was all about their knowledge of scripture. We would probably be doctrinally sound, but would totally lack in other areas of our walk.

But if all five of these ministry gifts is ministering to the body, then the body is filled out and complete in its understanding of the things of God. Our church cannot get from me what a person with a prophet's calling can give them. I do not walk in that calling.

In the same way, I cannot be complete if I am not submitting the man with the prophet's calling, pastor's calling, evangelist's calling, or apostle's calling. I must have these other men around me to keep me in check so to speak. Otherwise I will get really cranial in a hurry, and will miss out on the movings of the Holy Spirit. By the same token, a prophet will get way out there and flaky and lead his congregation that direction if he does not have the teacher balancing his calling. God has not given ANY of us ALL of anything. We must rely on one another as the members of the body connected and having specific purposes to supply. (See the rest of Ephesians 4).

As to the 1 Cor. 12 gifts, we have here a different list entirely. Nine, specific ministry gifts that the Holy Spirit manifests in a believer for empowerment for supernatural ministry. I have had God give me a message in tongues and an interpretation in a service to edify the body. I have been given words of wisdom and knowledge for specific people that spoke specifically into their lives about thing that I had no knowledge of. This did help the body grow and mature as these people received, with me as the tool being used by God, ministry from the Holy Spirit that had great impact on their lives.

Romans 12 seems to combine these in a discussion about how the body should have care for itself. We are to understand that no gift is given for our own sake or our own good, but rather for the edification of the body so that the body might grow and mature.

Travis: As usual another edifying and informative posting.

To the rest I say,

As to the necessity of Spiritual gifts...all of them whether charismata or vocational they are as necessary as the Spirit of God is necessary for the building of God's people.

To say the gifts of God are not necessary by reason of over-realized eschatology or ignorance of their purpose is to presuppose human effort, human wisdom, human knowledge, human unity, human contrivance have superseded the gifts of God.

If you do not have God's gifting all that is left is human ability. But Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ is not a humanly built temple to God's glory.

Those who have created doctrines where the gifts of God are relegated to the past have denied that God will build his Church on the members ministering to one another. They are saying ( no matter what they preach) That they and their band of professionals are the only ones fit and qualified to administer the life of Jesus to others.
This leads to amazing passivity in the congregation which is rampant to the point of virulent crippling of the Body of Christ.
This means that you cannot be trusted to hear God for yourself, learn from God for yourself, expect God to use you, and engage you in kingdom building...without the professional's permission.

What does the professional raise up? Another professional who joins the elite divides from the congregation in terms of vocation, knowledge, and trust ( which has the appearance of God's calling) but poisons the water where it drinks. Namely in that, the professional is confined to what human constructs of Church government are imposed.

So, pick your denomination...pentecostal, baptist, reformed, whatever...from among the congregation of 250, there will be that 15-25 that will be raised up in the next 10 years to minister the word of God to whatever extent they can under the rules of their organization. The rest of the 225 will be confined to sunday school classes, childrens church classes, 2-5 of them will do something evangelically outside the church with little to no appreciation, support of prayer from the corporate body...the rest will listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, listen and sit, forget and sit, forget and sit, forget and sit, forget and sit, forget and sit, forget and sit forget and sit, harden up and sit harden up and sit harden up and sit harden up and sit, harden up and sit.

Please tell me what part of God's giftings and their design to be incorporated in all the members, used and welcomed in the congregation is inferior, un-needed and will not help the Church grow?

Hi Twayneb
Your Qoute
I think that if we look at each of the lists of gifts, we find some marked differences in purpose and function that will be important to this discussion.

In saying what you've just said then you have to acknowldge that the gifts have a purpose and a function and without those gifts that purpose or function can not be obtained.

Hence as in the case of Eph This Process below cannot happen.
Without attaining the Unity of The Faith their is no real unity

Look at Eph 4:11 its saying that without these gifts we CANNOT BE 1 Equiped 2 Built up 3 Reach Unity In The Faith 4 Or Become Mature
urs staff

What makes a congregation hard?

Listening to "preach the gospel" but never doing it.
Listening to "love your neighbor" but never doing it
Listening to "serve others around you" but never doing it.
Listening to "professionals tell you, you have the bible and all you need to is believe it...but they don't believe the bible themselves, they only do so in part and so you do so in part.

Being a forgetful hearer. Being a hearer who will profess faith and not exercise faith.
Being commanded to 'go out' and never intending to go out and stay out.

All of this hardens a congregation. Which in the end becomes the very thing the professional preaches against. What happened? The professional himself was bound by the unbelief and shackles of Church government whereby all he could do is create more failures like himself.

I know this, I realize over the years I have bound and shackled in unbelief and restrictions others that do not see any freedom to go beyond the failings of Brother Marvin. They interpreted wrongly my limitations as equal to Jesus limitations for them.

Even if I preached and showed them the doctrine and the gifts of God's Spirit, I didn't contain all knowledge and all ability. The improvement was to be found in Travis or Blaine or Mary or Mike or Todd or Greg or one of the other blessed saints of God. They presupposed that I was enough...and to my own reproach thought they were right. What a fool! What a blinded man...They needed the light from Frank and the wisdom of Savannah or beauty from Evangeline...instead, the spirit of professionalism and elitism ( all forms of human pride and innovation) kept them from acting in faith toward Jesus Christ because I was not sufficient for the ones I loved and cared for.
They followed me even when I wasn't following Christ. They believed me when I was in unbelief. They served worldly purposes as I by my example served my worldly purpose.

We not only need the gifts of God, they are what Jesus truly is to the people of God.
Jesus corrects, but, the unbelief of others, unwilling to hear God give a corrective word, passively knew I was wrong or in error and let it go...and I stayed in it. I was not built up, I was let to deteriorate by way of neglect.

This is an outcome of professional pulpiteering, the body neglects itself, unable or unwilling to entertain even the idea that a supernatural God would supernaturally empower you to bring the supernatural life of God to a man like myself in dire need of supernatural help.

1 Corinthians 12
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Galatians 5:22English Standard Version (ESV)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

2 Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

i want to ask the question, what do we mean by unity as there is ecumenical unity such as the charismatic catholic movement that profess they are Christians but still follow Catholicism.

Most people do not have discerning of spirits recently.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I believe in the GIfts but do they glorify Christ or the person using them.

I never know what gifts I have as I as sidenote.

I want unity but unity in truth and unity that glorifys christ and his word

Hi Dominic: The gifts of God glorify Christ.

The manifestations of God's power are attention-getting so the false teachers go after the teaching and preaching of such manifestations in order to give themselves an air of authenticity, power or holiness with God.
So, in such a circumstance the false teacher not only steals what God has designed for his glory and the building of his people, the liar has also just mimicked the manifestation of God and given a false representation of its purpose.
What's the purpose of the manifestation? Build the Body of Christ...into a holy Temple, pure, spotless, glorious, devoted, loving, sacrificial, giving, compassionate blessed men and women.

The gifts of God are God's grace giftings whereby the supernatural funnel through a human agent (the believer)

There are two ways expressed in scripture to obtain spiritual giftings.
Covet them, therefore praying for and believing God to empower you with them.
Faith expressing itself in love, the more excellent way for the operation of Jesus love through us is to live by the love of God. This love of God will entreat God for the word of wisdom, or a word of knowledge, God can and does impart prophetic words to individuals or a congregation or larger.
Bring healing to sick ones, deliverance from demons by the working of a miracle of deliverance.
The Love of God, in all its everyday clothes, an everyday routine will find a way to express itself...and one of the ways is by God's giftings.

So many interpret wrongly the text that the Love of God supersedes the gifts of God. That is not what Paul is saying. Paul is teaching us the more "excellent way" is superior to coveting them as a part of what or who you are, Loving others...which does not fail can and should tool-up with divine giftings where the Spirit of God will manifest himself supernaturally in various manifestations.

And again for those not familiar with my teaching on the subject. With the exception of private tongues...the gifts of God do not work according to our own human wills, God by his Spirit manifests as he wills in his time. This means I can love, pray and still get a NO answer. But it also means I do get yes answers where there would never be the slightest hint of a supernatural answer, healing, word or blessing from God.

Unity has nothing to do with the manifestations of the Spirit in this sense. Unity is a manifestation of peace and love together that bonds the believers with a real sense of connectedness to each other and to Christ.

It might help you to know.
God is not making Pentecostals or Charismatics. God is just making Christians whom he loves and gifts according to his own plans and purposes.
You need not pattern yourself after any of them.
You need not pattern yourself after the unbelief, stodginess, skepticism of others who deny the gifts of God where any and all actions must be run by their board, their unbelief litmus tests or their 'approval committee'.
You need not fall into any weird and stupid extremes you know are false...so don't.
You need not succumb to irrational skepticism that views all supernatural Christianity like a David Hume 'extraordinary evidence' questionnaire.

You are free.

Hence as in the case of Eph This Process below cannot happen.
Without attaining the Unity of The Faith their is no real unity

in 1 Corinthians, Paul urges the people of Corinth to be of the same mind and judgment, to speak the same thing. This is the unity of the faith and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. He then gives the fact that they do not do this as evidence of their carnality. They were dividing themselves over the nuances of their favorite preachers or teachers. Basically the roots of denominationalism.

But the solution, in my opinion, is not ecumenicalism. Unity for the sake of unity has not, and will not work. There is a true unity where we all speak the same thing. But this unity only comes as we allow God to radically transform our lives. I am not going to have to debate with others to try to get them to come over to my way of thinking for unity to happen. I am going to have to humble myself and allow God to teach me truth, even if it means laying aside things that I have long held to be true.

I do not believe that the church will always be fragmented by denomination and doctrine as it is now. I believe that there is a reformation coming, perhaps on par with that of Luther. It will be a reformation of surrender to the Lord, of relationship and intimacy. From this intimacy and relationship will come a surrenderedness (if that is a word) to the Lord that will result in unity of doctrine. After all, He will speak the same thing to each man. I think there will be those who reject the voice of the Lord for the sake of their intellectual understanding. There will be those who never knew the voice of the Lord to begin with . Then there will be those who will say, "Yes Lord! Change me! Mold me! Make me! Just let me know You more."

Hi
I think ur missing my point or answering questions I didnt ask.
Im not talking about ecumenism .What I am saying is that the gifts have a purpose and without them that purpose cannot be obtained.
PAUL SAYS Ephesians:
11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

This is the order
Gifts equips his people for works of service
The body gets built up
Then we reach the unity of faith and in the knowledge of the Son Of God and become mature

Paul definitely links gifts to the process of reaching the Unity of the faith.Another way of putting it is:Can we be built up without the gifts?and if we are not built up can we reach the Unity of The Faith?

Urs Staff

I am in total agreement. We have tried many methods to attain unity in the body, but we have sometimes ignored the methods that the Bible itself spells out. There is a mutual recognition and respect for the gifts that God places in the body that causes us to grow up into maturity as we receive from the anointing God has placed on fellow members of the body. I guess my point in response to what you said is that we can try all kinds of ways to bring unity in the body, but God's way is best.

I am pro unity if it is not ecumenical and in the spirit of truth ,

A w riser has a sermon in which he concentrates on this verse
1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant

I have never known what my spiritual gift is

We just need more Noah's...Noah was fully committed to God's plan, it made no difference to him whether he understood everything or not. If only we all were more committed to God's plan, instead of trying to understand everything, dare to be a Noah.

The gifts of the Spirit are not of themselves the unifying agents for believers.

"have fervent love among yourselves" this is the unifying ingredient.
Placing an incredible value upon others is the result of the love of God.
Jealous for the glory of God is another ingredient, this results in an adherence to living a crucified life where self is dead and love is free to express itself in a myriad of ways.

Sin will abound..."the love of many will wax cold"
Unity is a byproduct of love, seeking to love God and one another brings the blossoms of unity up and peace with each other makes them bloom.

Unity for the sake of unity always has had a bad smell to it for me. The motive for that unity attempts to side-step the fervent love of God toward each other...this is done in order to exploit what good unity can produce. In short, we are unified to obtain a goal that we want. Jesus wants love and holiness...obviously we are demonstrating by such unity another objective distinct from Christ's.

This is just an opinion and therefore one piece of the pie, not the whole pie!

Marvin said, "Sin will abound..."the love of many will wax cold"" and it's just not the world that's waxing cold, it's the Christians! And he also said, "have fervent love among yourselves", this is the unifying ingredient. Placing an incredible value upon others is the result of the love of God."

And my personal opinion is the reason most Christians can't love others is they have a warped view of how God loves them and they think He loves them conditionally, so they do what they know... love others the same way, sadly 'conditionally.'

When you know that God places incredible value on YOU (unconditionally) then you begin to place incredible value on others.

Just my two cents, :)
God bless,
Lisa

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

So, without a true revelation of the love of Christ, we can never receive His fulness in our lives.

Hi
I dont think thats what Paul is saying in Ephesians what he is saying is their is a process and that without the gifts this cannot happen,urs staff

by staff
I dont think thats what Paul is saying in Ephesians what he is saying is their is a process and that without the gifts this cannot happen,

I was typing up a response to you and then thought, "I don’t know for sure exactly what he doesn't think Paul is NOT saying in Ephesians,” so I thought I had better ask before I waste 2 hours on a response! :)

What don't you think Paul is not saying in Ephesians?

God bless you,
Lisa

The thing is with God is that you cannot make him do anything, you cannot make him have a revival, Thats why he is god!

They are his gifts and he chooses to whom he gives them!
I know I am a mess without Jesus!