What is being said out there?

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Website debunking christianity removed by moderator

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For those who do, I too read what our dissenters say about Christianity. Why? Because this think-tank is the current operations of Devilish powers that are given free movement in our time to work their deceptions. I like to know what the world thinks, what the worldly mind has decided is a cogent and powerful antidote to Christian thinking and scripture offerings.

In knowing these things, I am able to confront them in sermons, articles, posts, conversations, debates etc. I am able to prepare myself.

One of the main contributors to this blog was John Loftus he has now gone on, he died in his sin and in such a state as a self-proclaimed Christian-hater will meet the Christ who created him.

I encourage the strong and stable-in-faith to at least taste what is fomenting the disregard for Christianity today. You will find it amazing, sad, and maybe ironic as I do.

Over the years I have debated, challenged and by God's grace been a partaker in seeing the salvation of atheists.
As a general rule I do not spend much time working with professional Christ-rejectors knowing that throwing pearls before swine is unwise and unfitting for the seed sower. But I do read what they say because their PH.D's grant them some horsepower to pull numbers of unread and unlearned young people with them. Their positions in universities and their books serve to draw a deep line on the ground so that no 'religious inquiry' done by any student can avail anything but ridicule from their peers and professors and a null-future in scientific academia. Although the above statement is in fact false, it's touted as true to the ignorant student.

I was reading an old Atheist blog where the author had marshaled 10 questions that when asked would stop the Christian in his tracks. When I first got into counter-cult ministry and apologetic s those questions caused me heart-ache, not because there was something wrong with my faith, but I wasn't prepared to undergo a philosophical battle with someone who could use the bat of scripture to beat me up, yet it was nothing but a feather to him when I used it. This perplexed me...I didn't understand the double-speak nor did I understand or perceive at first the basis for their claims are fraught with defeaters ( self-referential contradictions)"the water was so cold it was steaming our vegetables." I didn't recognize those problems so in answering them, I didn't answer them but could only avoid them.

Ive learned a little since then, I've grown in my faith by the grace of God, these questions and books by such men fall like dominoes. This is a wonderful work of God. The Spirit of the Lord reveals the dark things, he unveils hidden things and brings to light the source of such questions.

I enjoy apologetics and I find it immensely helpful in weeding out the errors labeled "truth" or "fact" from the lost It frees me up to disengage a philosophical problems and present a scriptural response to human philosophy.

Maybe some of you will undertake gaining some insight from Christian apologetics. I know God has used it gloriously in my life, I have been blessed tremendously.

For others its not their thing and they need not spend 1 second worrying about it.

Marvin,

When did this guy die, and from what?

The FBI counterfeit division learns to uncover the fake dollar by studying the real dollar. While on the streets in Canton we had some wonderful manifestation s happen, we were really ignorant unlearned men/women just sharing Jesus, there were many times we came across PhD s from a few of the local Christian colleges here about s. They would confront us with things we could not handle, what The Lord started to do was exposes their secret sins through The gifts of The Holy Spirit and eventually when they came out of the local bars they literally ran from us when they spotted us. I have always wanted to be like someone maybe Ravi Zachariah is someone like Dr. White or someone like that but it seems that even though I study while witnessing all that studying takes back seat and the Love of Christ with great joy along with gifting s seem to kick in and I become as it were very simple, sometimes it frustrates me and to thoughts who know me it humorous.
I do believe there is a need for apologetic s but I honestly will never be one, but I really admire thoughts who are.

sermonindex.....The spirit of the age is strong and can pervert the minds of people.

We should all remember, that not everyone here is on the same level of learning, if you come here to help teach, you're not helping if you're trying to teach 1st graders 12 grade math. Maybe SI should have a dedicated forum for the biblical scholars, because it's really selfish to come here and talk above most everyone's heads. We all want to learn, to bad we all don't focus on learning more about Jesus, than most of the other stuff posted here.

Greg: I'm hoping that apologetics is not some taboo subject. Over the last 10 years God has seen fit to raise up outstanding Christian apologist to benefit the body of Christ, their work and understanding lay a good foundation for young believers to work from when confronting the issues attack the Christian faith.

I would also hope that there would be no need to justify apologetic topics on this website, though it is conspicuously obvious the lack of them is for a reason. Mr Bill seems to depict such reasoning in has recent post.

I fully agree such websites are scary to young Christians, but the cat is already out of the bag. I read college after college shutting its doors to any kind of Christian input, witness, academia. This doesn't happen because the Christians at the colleges are well versed in resisting the nonsense touted as 'science and reason'. They have had little introduction to it and in due course lies and falsehoods lay the foundation for skepticism and materialism.

To me, not discussing it, ignoring it, avoiding it is everything that we on this website criticize and condemn. Namely, avoiding the true teaching of the cross is openly anathematized...yet we have nothing to say about a failed and bankrupt ideology such as philosophical materialism? To me it is all the same.

For many who have done little to no investigation into the field of Christian apologetics, their knee-jerk reaction is to criticize apologetics as 'arguing folks into God' and 'useless debates' or the biggest joke of all...'we just want to talk about Jesus'.
This kind of mindset is one of the paramount reasons why the Church is in the state it is in, because 'Just give me Jesus' was confined to a comfortable continuance of hearing the safe and common sermons we have all heard before. But the devil being wise to our little harmless get togethers knew that such a mindset and perspective on Christianity in a culture like our works exceptionally well in his favor.
"we want revival" no, we don't, we want comfort. We want revival, no, we don't, we want non-conflict Christianity. We want revival, no we don't we want to look nice, act nice and talk nice to the enemies of the faith when in fact this naive silliness only gives more space and time for demonic out-workings of humanist, materialist propaganda.

Edit to add, This is rhetorical, it is not directed at anyone.
"This doesn't sound like the nice Jesus of scripture". This is because I have no reason whatsoever to imitate a caricature of Jesus Christ you deem satisfactory.

Folks like John Loftus ( which I read was deceased but he not Thanks for questioning Savannah, I had read that he was, but when I went back to review the article it was no where to be found) Fake news? Sorry for the mistake, consider this a retraction.
Again Apostate preachers like John Loftus and Dan Barker who now become full time apologist for atheism ( though Dan's emphasis is mainly to debunk the New Testament) get a free pass? Really. A beat down on the W,O.F preachers is so easy but nothing to say about these two? It's these two that make in roads into our colleges, its not W.O.F. preachers per-se that are convincing youth to reject Christianity. It's our exploiters of the Christian faith that are used as the 'afterthought' example once they have been convinced of the errors of Dr. Barker and John Loftus.

If apologetics is off the table fine, I fully submit to what the website hosts consider best. I do understand that the condensed version of anti-theism as written by various atheist authors is way to much for a young believer. Yet, when will it be safe for these subjects to be read and known?

The spirit of this age is strong, but so Is Christ in me, who I read is greater in ME than he that is in the world. This is not a doctrinal assertion it is the truth of any genuine believer.
A Spirit of maturity does not pervert the minds of people, I dont know why someone has not called this an error. Maturity is "Christ-likeness". It is no different now than when Jesus spoke. Somethings he said were difficult for the disciples to grasp, but they were said, Peter said the Apostle Paul spoke of things that are hard to be understood. There is no avid bible student that walks away from the scriptures and says "yea, I understand it all"...instead we say with Paul "I see this whole thing as if looking through a glass darkly".
Apologetics is in my opinion simply attempting to do two things.
1. To show that human ideologies fail on their own account, they sink like the Titanic because of their own defeaters.
2. In showing the inevitable problems with those ideologies I am not in the least irrational, unthinking or foolish to look past them for other options.

Jesus is the final answer, he is the truth. When folk do not understand the purpose of apologetic s they seem to consider it a stand alone, something disconnected from the gospel message. I've not written anything on this website at any time that is not directly integrate-able to an apologetic answer or, that a sound apologetic response cannot be integrated into the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Marvin said...When folk do not understand the purpose of apologetic s they seem to consider it a stand alone, something disconnected from the gospel message.

If you think I'm wrong, just go back into most all the threads and I promise you, you will see the same few folks posting in them, why do you think that is? My guess is because the're so deep, only God and a few others here might understand. If you don't feel like it's selfish to keep all the threads at a Biblical Scholar level, I guess carry on soldier.....By the way Marvin, I have a Bible that tells me everything I need to know, in a manner that don't involve debating. In my opinion, "most" debates lead to some animosity in most believers, folks that depend on their Bible don't have to ever worry about debating God's word, because he speaks the complete truth, were most debates end in skepticism for some. Is there a place for the Marvin's of the world, no doubt! but maybe this isn't one of them.

"Folks like John Loftus ( which I read was deceased but he not Thanks for questioning Savannah, I had read that he was, but when I went back to review the article it was no where to be found) Fake news? Sorry for the mistake, consider this a retraction.
Again Apostate preachers like John Loftus and Dan Barker..."

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Thanks for clarifying that he's not deceased.

Some may think it's only a heartless christian that would say what I'm going to say next. But...truth be known...I was hoping you were right about Loftus. Of course I'd rather see him bowing before Christ, testifying to His amazing grace, and calling Him Lord, while he's here on earth. But I would not be grieving over the news of his death.

These apostates you mention, along with Hitchens(deceased 2011 - the same year as David Wilkerson and Steve Jobs) and Dawkins, are the closest thing to being the devil incarnate.

They all mock the God I love. Not that God needs my defense or moral support against these evil men and seducers. But when I listened to that Barker guy mock God the way he did, I thought I had heard the voice of the devil himself. I'd be lying if I told you that I would grieve if I heard that he'd been struck dead by an angel and his body eaten by worms as Herod in the book of Acts. The historian Josephus gives an account of this in his writings as well.

And no, I do not ask that fire come down out of heaven and devour them all. I know, that in due season, God will vindicate Himself and His people.

Your post was excellent Marvin. I'm encouraged to know that some are called to carry out this work you're doing. It is much needed. It all began in the garden, Eve being no match for the devil. That serpent hasn't changed his strategy. He is spreading his lies, and very few are armed with the shield against his fiery darts. Nor are they experienced with the sword of the spirit to cut him to pieces. It is a war of words. Jesus won in the wilderness, so must we!

May God bless your efforts Marvin -

NOTE: Don't think I put David Wilkerson in there with those others as being in the same category. I merely stated that they all died in the same year. I make this note just in case any might think such a thing. Their father was the devil, but God was David's father.

Your post was excellent Marvin. I'm encouraged to know that some are called to carry out this work you're doing. It is much needed. It all began in the garden, Eve being no match for the devil. That serpent hasn't changed his strategy. He is spreading his lies, and very few are armed with the shield against his fiery darts. Nor are they experienced with the sword of the spirit to cut him to pieces. It is a war of words. Jesus won in the wilderness, so must we!

Mr Bill: We are not on a different page, nor are we divided as to there being levels of understanding on any subject. You are correct, without foundations building the edifice is going to be disastrous.

Here is what I hope would occur.
If myself or someone says something that appears complicated, or contains terms unrecognized...all they need to do is ask, I am more than happy to explain the best I can.
If someone says "take me back to the beginning, I cannot see how you arrived here, I have no idea where you started from?"
I am more than happy to explain.
Questions like that should be asked so that as you said "we can all work together".

This is the wonderful difference between myself and Charles Spurgeon, or John Owens, or Jonathan Edwards...I am alive to respond to questions and difficulties just as you are brother Bill, God has set us here to aid in the growth of those around us, I want to grow, I want to hear what others say to me and to various others. Paul Washer preaches awesome sermons but who is here to dice them up? Who here is going to question or appreciate the doctrinal foundations from where he preaches from? It's us Bill, God has commissioned us to speak to our generation, and in this blessed forum speak on a wide variety of topics.

The nature of these forums do not lend themselves to a direct teaching format.
EXAMPLE.
Brother Bill Says: For the next 6 weeks I will be posting on the topic of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. So that within that period you present a cursory view, or detailed view or maybe a scholarly view of the Resurrection.

Ive yet to read any postings directed to the forum where someone undertakes to deliver in posted form the basics you believe are necessary to the readers visiting here.
What we do encounter is a casual engaging with doctrine and teaching where various ones express their own personal insights (and a great deal of them are quite good) and by this expose others to 'teaching' under the heading 'personal beliefs'.
The whole website is devoted to offering some of the greatest sermons from some of the finest preachers God has given to his Church.
Maybe there are some tiny few that have sermons on this site and will take the time to discuss their teachings with us. I believe Brother Bosch to be one.

It appears you really want this to gain an element of direct teaching from some approved sources. Men whom the moderators believe know Jesus and speak the truth of God.

I may not qualify for that category, but others might and maybe this is something that can arise as God directs Greg and others to provide a virtual venue for it. Maybe a whole other section in the discussion list.
Yet, in a place like this, normally the first thing you will hear is "Brother Marv, you are no Paul Washer, you are nothing like Allen Redpath or do you think to offer us what Art Katz has offered?
So in short my friend, the answer lay in directing the unlearned to various sermons already given so that they may listen to them...and cut out anyone from teaching anyone anything. What we have to offer is somehow inferior and no doubt questionable because you I have no reputation.

It is the paradox of edification, not a biblical one, but paradoxical all the same.

Thanks Savannah for the kind words to me.

The major problem in these forums has always been the weakness of the written word in dialogue, basically we have limited personal relationships and can not see things like humor or sarcasm,etc...so it is a weak system. In the early days Ron Bailey , who is featured on this site tried, I believe he also spoke ar some of the conferences too. He tried to do what you are suggesting and it was a very difficult thing and I am sure took tons of time from his already busy ministry schedule.. If you factor in personalities under anonymous headings people can say or act foolishly just for their own kicks. I Know Bill remember s as well as Frank and maybe a few others that have been on here a long time. So if you have fully counted the cost get ready for a wild ride and seeing nut cases come out of the wood works. Seriously, thread after thread will close or become fruitless. It may be beneficial to look at threads Ron Bailey and some that Robert Wersler started and see what you may be in for. Than just count the cost. God bless bro.dmiller

Brother Miller..So if you have fully counted the cost get ready for a wild ride and seeing nut cases come out of the wood works. Seriously, thread after thread will close or become fruitless.

The deeper the Theology, the more disagreements you will see in almost every thread. This is why I have mentioned in some of my posts, that I feel it's better to stick with the simpler Theology, and it also gives the new or unlearned christian the ability to participate. There's not really anything else to say, Marvin your're a smart man, you understand what I've said, but if you have the patience to deal with the feedback you will get in many deep Theology threads, I say go for it! No one should ever let man discourage us from a calling we feel God has placed on our heart. We should all be a Paul! Paul knew that he was not all that he should be, as he endeavored to complete God's calling for his life, but he kept working towards that goal. Paul never let anything separate him from obeying and following after God's will regardless of how difficult the situation became or how challenging the disappointments. Sometimes not even the simple to understand threads end very gracefully, I can't think of a simpler subject than the one on marriage and remarriage, scripture is very, very plain on this, but go read those threads, it gets rough in some of those threads.

Hi Brother Bill:

My agenda is two fold, to offer what God has shown me, submit it for others to scrutinize and accept. I believe this is normative for Christian men/women who want to learn the truth of God from one another.
Secondly to encourage others in what they believe, I have no underlying agenda to conform everyone here to my way of thinking. I will offer what I believe to be a correction, or even a refusal. Yet, the vast majority of what I have read has been consistent with scripture and hopefully I am consistent myself.

I didn't ever intend for a difficult topic to become a means of division.
A peace-time mindset among believers can be harmful. Namely, when disagreements occur, and they will, we easily dismiss our brothers and find new ones who are more agreeable to our views and who will pat us on the back for getting rid of our dissenters. This is not my view, I believe it is anathema to mutual love and edification.

I introduced apologetics because I enjoy it, it has been used of God to strengthen the body of Christ and it can be helpful to all believers no matter what their education, intellect or spiritual strength.

As to "deep theology" being divisive; anytime we go beyond the cursory view of any topic our own understandings of things ( being what they are) always, and I mean always conflict with others. We don't articulate the same even when we fully agree with one another. We don't understand with equal clarity some thing even when at its base we are in full agreement.
As is stated directly below this post-window there is a way to speak to one another and it should be followed.
Lastly not every disagreement need be debated, I offer explanation on things that I am not in a debate over, I am simply articulating a viewpoint. I know others feel or believe opposite views expressed strongly must of necessity be argumentative and therefore a divisive posting.
I do not read opposing opinions as such, unless they are stating emphatically their posting is more than disagreement its "we are divided and you are not on my side anymore".

I know I become a member post-apocalyptically ( pun intended) after some blow-out in the past. My intention is peaceful discussion and sharing information not conformity, anger and dissention that may have occurred in the past.

Marvin said...My intention is peaceful discussion and sharing information

Brother Bill thanks for the compliment.

Knowing a lot doesn't make you argumentative, a kind of disposition, a competitive spirit, prideful spirit, mean spirit leads many to argumentation.

I have all of that in my old man he attempts to jump down from the cross from time to time and assume his old job...living unto himself.

Yet, deeper in me is what I know God has made me, determined to expose the truth, willing to take the brunt of accusations and attacks. These things God has done in my so that he might speak through me and accomplish his will.
I am a long ways from all that Jesus wants to live and speak through me, but denying what God has made me only compounds confusion in me and gives even more room for the 'old Marv' to set up camp and keep Jesus from receiving what he purchased me for.

This same thing is true of you brother, though gifted differently it's Jesus living his life through me, uniquely me and uniquely you that brings glory and honor to him.

The major problem in these forums has always been the weakness of the written word in dialogue, basically we have limited personal relationships and can not see things like humor or sarcasm, etc...so it is a weak system….. Seriously, thread after thread will close or become fruitless. It may be beneficial to look at threads Ron Bailey and some that Robert Wersler started and see what you may be in for. Than just count the cost.

I say, people like Ravi Zacharias, Tim Keller, etc can teach us how to respond to objections, questions, differing ideas… by their example. (See Youtube) Maybe someday we can take an example and analyze their work.

Diane: Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying concisely what would take me a dozen posts to say.

Diane said:
"Unfortunately, posters who submitted reasonable discussion topics got their threads shut down. It was frustrating, and some just drifted off or stuck to "safe” topics. You spare the headache of obnoxious posters or tedious topics, but you can lose your best thinkers and you miss critical topics. That’s a risk too.

I say, people like Ravi Zacharias, Tim Keller, etc can teach us how to respond to objections, questions, differing ideas… by their example. (See Youtube) Maybe someday we can take an example and analyze their work"

This was my intent from the outset, there are so many good apologists dealing with subject matter germane to all our lives and the cultures in which we live. I think we should look at those topics, talk about them and consider the apologetic responses given. It may be heady for some, but it will never become understandable if left out of the conversations completely.

Yet, when I say heady, there is plenty of material available for the novice to dive into and enjoy, learn and integrate it into their thinking.

I suspect that one day I will be banned for some of my hetetical view points.

Of course it's possible to have the right view point and be obnoxious and arrogant in our defense. (God forgive me for the many times I've been guilty, and may others point it out if they see it.)

It occurred to me that we can learn from those orators who are not on our "approved" list, maybe try to see their reasoning. We can sure learn from bad orators: by examining their inconsistent logic, sloppy thinking, use of unsubstantiated opinions or propensity to merely mimic others. It's not hard to find those kinds: just watch media folk. They surely remind us of our need to develop critical skills. And if we don't bother, then we are no better than them, even if we are "right" and they are "wrong".