The Preachers Whom I Respect and Follow by Zac Poonen

I agree! I think Jesus may be the only pastor with those credentials.

I have personally met and spoken to Zac and I have to say he is a very quiet, humble man. I am sure he lives up to the standard he has set here. Infact I do not think it is too high a standard to set, not just for preachers but for anyone that would call themselves a mature follower of Jesus Christ.

The fact we do not expect this way of life from preachers let alone ourselves just goes to show how lackluster true Christianity is in the developed world.

Blessings Steve

Steve said...The fact we do not expect this way of life from preachers let alone ourselves just goes to show how lackluster true Christianity is in the developed world.

Here's a quote from Brother Zac:

"A dog cannot understand multiplication ”“ how three ones when multiplied can still be one: 1x1x1=1. Neither can we understand how God can be Three Persons and yet One God. A dog can understand only another dog. He cannot understand a man fully. In the same way, a god that could be explained and understood by our human reason would only be another man just like ourselves. The very fact that the God of the Bible transcends our reason is the clearest evidence that this is indeed the truth.”

You know whats really heart breaking, there are many younger wonderful pastors today, that get covered up by the old school pastors, they don't get the credit they deserve. I linked a YouTube video the other day from Brother Greg Laurie..."How To Go To Church" it has to be one of the top 3 best sermons I've ever heard in my life, but Brother Greg never gets mentioned here. Is it that only the old school pastors have a clue? Because remember they to were young once, I have nothing against the older pastors, I just don't understand all the noise about all the old ones, maybe someone can clue me in. Personally I think if any of the younger pastors today can still preach the true word of God in today's world, their burden is a lot heavier, because the world has really gone south a lot since the early days.

I do not see it as a very high standard at all. Which standard emphasized here is not supported by Scripture? Let me tell this, if you need a surgery and you have an option to select the surgeon, who sets a very high standard in Surgery like using sterilized equipment and another who does not sterilize equipment, then who will you select? I am sure none of those who complain that this is very high standard will ever choose a surgeon who does not set a high standard in surgery. This shows that we are more concerned about Physical health than our spiritual health. When it comes to spiritual life, we are content to hear speakers who are not themselves interested in following christ. If we see such articles we complain that it is a very high standard! No wonder scripture clearly says that in the end time there will be those who want ear tickling preachers!

I have personally known Zac Poonen, I do not even consider myself worthy to defend him, nor am I taking any effort to do it. I know all these points are true about him. None of these points are higher than the standard set by scripture and apostles. One thing that stands out about him is, he is not a pleaser of men at all. He will be quick to rebuke his fellow workers if they set their mind on ways of men. He never preaches to please men, the reason he was rejected in India for many years is that he never tried to please men. For a person of such a gift, if he had little bit reduced his standard to please people then he could have become a very powerful Christian leader in India. But he never does. Most of his life was faced with severe poverty while he published his contents for free and never accepted money for service.

Another thing that I find unique about him, is the standard of his cowokers. My own father in law is his coworker. A very Godly man whom I have witnessed at a very close range! I have also worked closely with Zac's Coworkers, I know they all set very high standard in their life. As far as I know all his co-workers ( I have known), will easily pass these standards.

When I read stuff I like I love it and hate it at the same time.

I love it because the insistance upon Godliness and holiness is right and true, the necessity of bearing good fruit and being an example to the flock is stressed.

I hate it because people reading this sort of thing will think of their own preacher whom they know and have a wayward son or daughter...therefore they are not a preacher.
Some have suffered at the hands of wicked mates who committed adultery and deserted them...they must be not be a true preacher.

As you go through the list you realize that the men God uses are not great and their so-called earned respect is due to the grace-working of God in their lives. So, Brother Zac has only just a few men he can approve and respect.

I don't see Jesus as doing any such thing. Jesus said 'feed my sheep to a failed, betraying peter...after 3 years of ministry and discipleship with Jesus. I see the rest of the disciples are forsaking him.

In Zac's Christian world there is no room for the failures, or the sinners of a bible. The david that wrote psalms...well there's no way Zac can approve or respect an adulterer and conspiritor to murder. That Abraham saved his skin by lying about his wife...yea Pharoah might sleep with her but at least I wont be killed. There is no way Zac could respect him.
Jeremiah had his doubting and painful moments, letting God know I can continue to do this preaching...all they want to do is kill me...and you do nothing about it. That's a failure to remain consistent and shows no example of perseverance under stress. Zac cannot under his criterial accept such a flop.

But we all know Zac accepts all these men because God accepts them. Maybe we would do well to understand that godly men are so not because they are great, but because God is great.

When I read this self-serving litmus test I recognize that all he said is true and needed in the body of Christ...but acceptance and usability by God is not according to this list, it is found in the grace of God given when we were yet enemies and alienated from God.

Nope, keep the list I'll judge for myself according to the Spirit and word who I give respect. My list is larger and Im good with that.

Great posts Brother Marvin and Brother Frank, If God would have only used men with Zac’s credentials, one might wonder if we would have ever known the word grace. I’m always trying to "with Gods help” improve myself, but I’m sure not going to live under any bondage of condemnation, while he’s working in me, I’m going to live like he is using me just as I am today. They’re to many different shoes to fill in the old world, and God knows the ones that can fill the shoes to minister to every hurting heart on earth. I don’t care how approved you might be according to man, remember all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like a filthy rag; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind, our iniquities sweep us away. That kinda dampens all those good credentials.

In Zac's Christian world there is no room for the failures, or the sinners of a bible.

I do not think you even read this article.
This article clearly says this -

So, even if you have been a total failure in the past, God can still make you an example for others to follow.

All these characters whom you have quoted are all old covenant. God still used them. God can even use a donkey. So there is nothing great in being used by God. But God is not pleased with everyone he uses! We are not called to run the race looking at David or Abraham. We are called to run the new covenant race looking at Jesus. If Jesus is our example then we will not take David as an excuse for those who fall in adultery. Nor Abraham as excuse for those who fear and lie.

I want to live the Christian life looking into Jesus, it is a shame that many pastors fall in Adultery and take the excuse of David for their sins. It is very plain that Jesus is not their example. I do not want to hear anyone who follows David, I want to listen to pastors who want to follow Jesus and have the attitude that was in Jesus in them. I am thankful that God has not allowed me to be deceived looking at oLd covenant examples and their failures.

If we think that the life of all Bible writers are acceptable standard then why not live like Solomen? Lets also worship other Gods like he did! God used him as well to write 2 books in Bible.

Nope, keep the list I'll judge for myself according to the Spirit and word who I give respect. My list is larger and Im good with that.

This is exact point of this article. There is no place the writer of the article is saying that everyone should use these filters. He is saying he uses these filters. If you do not agree with him then use your own fliters. Like I said if you do not want a surgeon with sterilized equipment for surgery then choose for yourself a surgeon who uses unclean equipment. It is your choice. You cannot blame the one who wants a surgeon with sterilized equipments!

I have met people who accuse Zac as false teacher. But I have never met anyone who could Biblically prove that any of his teaching is wrong. Even here people disagree with this article but none has any Biblical reference to support their argument! Can anyone here prove one of the point wrong with Biblical reference? I am absolutely convinced that most of the posters here do not come with a teachable spirit which is one of the rules of this forum. They come only to support those who agree with them.

I am absolutely convinced that most of the posters here do not come with a teachable spirit which is one of the rules of this forum. They come only to support those who agree with them.

Sree: When you disagree with a post I make, just come out and say it plainly, you need not erect a whole line of straw-men and then begin burning them down. If you are not conversant in logical fallacies, the idea is some 'terrible thing' is associated with the dissenting author, you then begin to burn up that 'terrible thing' and in so doing equate that with showing you have overcome the dissenters argument. The fallacy lay in the fact the 'terrible thing' was never asserted by the dissenter to begin with, so in short you gave yourself a typing lesson and did nothing to add weight to an argument made in opposition to mine.

I'll make this as plain as I can.
Brother Zac who I esteem as a faithful and good preacher of the gospel gave 7 points on what he considered qualifies a preacher as worthy of his respect.
The issue I took with the article was not in the scripture used to validate and discern good and godly men who seek to be leaders of the Church.
The issue was the addendum affixed to the scriptures which was Zac's approval and respect.
In judging righteous judgment, there must be a discerning that goes past the 'failing' of the person.
Jn8 text with the adulteress is relevant here.

Brother Zac gave room for repentance but only before conversion. You Sree dismiss old testament saints as unfit examples of God's dealing with his people, thats really another subject.
The implication is if one of your children acts out in his teen years... you are unqualified to preach.
If, you fund raise in anyway for God's work you are unqualified to preach,
If you are not building a local Church, but a group of disciples in prison, or in the jungles or at a park in a neighboring city you are unqualified to preach.
This is all fine for Brother Zac, he can have this criteria all he wants and he is welcome to it.

But Scripture principles concerning Pauls teachings on Church leaders do not contain Zac's addendums and therefore I can agree or disagree with whether someone not fitting Zac's narrow qualifications will receive my respect.

Secondly, it is important to recognize respect and loving-one-another walk hand in hand, a minister who falls, a preacher who's children get out of hand, a fund raiser for evangelistic out reaches and such like are all well within the parameters of biblical Christianity and instead of showing disrespect, unloving attitudes towards them, it might behove us to consider they are not our servant's but Christ's servants and in judging them we are essentially judging Jesus too.

Finally in the end you add another fallacy 'poisoning the well', meaning if I decide to stay with my own judgment of the matter I am some how condoning errant preachers, false standards for leadership or some other thing.
This my brother is just silly, it's not true of me or of anyone else according to the verbiage given on this thread.

Truth is, I do want a good preacher, I do want Godly standards and I do have my own judgment of the people I come in contact with and none of those are successfully impugned by the comments you've made.

It's very good you esteem Brother Zac and so do I, but I exercise my God given command to '1Th_5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Brother Zac is not shy about proving all things he hears and I do the same, even with the things he says. The scriptures are above my proving, but Brother Zac's are not.

For some this is such a minor thing it doesn't merit attention, to me It merited a response so I gave one.

Some good posts on this subject and in particular I agree with Marvin's points, which if I understand correctly, upholds the 7 points of Zac Poonen as good and valid characteristics we should be looking for in ourselves and those called to lead in the church. However we also understand that no person is perfect (as Zac states in the article) and therefore God still works through imperfect vessels. This in no way condones sin or failures, but allows God's grace to operate in those who have a sincere heart to obey Him.

As Mr Bill alluded, only Jesus fully meets the perfect standard of the Good Shepherd. All others, however good are only at best hired under-shepherds.

I have often wondered about the fact that we know nothing about the family or children of any of the Apostles. We do know that Peter was married and assume he must have had children. I suspect some of the other apostles also, but there is not one mention of any detail about their wives or children. And you would have thought that at least one of the apostles' children would have taken over the mantle of leading the church (if you go by today's standard), but there is not one I have heard of.

When you disagree with a post I make, just come out and say it plainly,

Other than the post in which I quoted you, none of my other posts are even directed to you. If they were directed then there is no reason for me to put it as multiple posts. It was my judgement of the forum members here and their lack of teachable spirit. I honestly did not even include you in the list. I apologize if I have hurt you in anyway.

I disagreed with only few things in your post. Infact I even agreed the way you ended your post. One thing I still disagree and believe that you are wrong is here,

Brother Zac gave room for repentance but only before conversion.

There is no part in this article that supports your view. In fact in the article the writer clearly says that "So, even if YOU have been a total failure in the past, God can still make you an example for others to follow."

The YOU here clearly talks to believers who read it. The writer has written this article to believers and not to unbelievers. Knowing his ministry very well, which is discipleship of believers, I am very certain about this fact.

Now assuming you and I are born again believers, the article clearly states that even if we have failed God in our past, which can be even yesterday or in past few seconds. We can still be an example.

I agree that he gave an example of Paul's pre-conversion failure. The reason is in New Covenant we do not have anyone failed after conversion and being filled with the Holy Spirit. If there was a person like that, Zac could have given his example. Also as far as I know Paul was the only person after Jesus who has told others to Follow him. Paul considered himself chief of sinners, yet God made him an example. That is the point of this article.

The point is not being used by God. Like I said before being Used is different from being an example. God used Solemen to write 2 books in Bible, but he was not an example to even Jews, forget about being an example to Christians! Anyone can be used by God even if he is living in open adultery, but they cannot be example for any Christian.

I have no disrespect of any of the Old Covenant saints, I only believe that they cannot be an example because as per Hebrews 12:1, Jesus alone is our example. If I disrespect them then the writer of Hebrews as well has done the same.

I still agree with you that these 7 points are not universal or objective. They are subjective and are also soundly Biblical. One can disagree with Subjective opinions but cannot say that they are unbiblical. There is nothing unbiblical about this article.

I think it is easy to misunderstand that this article states that God cannot USE a failed person. I do not even believe that the purpose of this article is usability to God. The purpose of this article is being an example to other believers.

We have to look into certain scriptures to understand Paul's stand here and how he was an example to other believers.

Phil 4-9:- Whatever you have learned and received and heard from me, and seen in me, put these things into practice.

I think this is a very very high standard to achieve. Paul here literally telling the Church to do anything that they see in him. I have not achieved that state yet, but I believe God is not partial only to Paul, he can make anyone achieve that level, if we believe so and worked with God.

I preach the Gospel frequently as well, but I always tell my short comings and make it very clear that I only share the path in which I am now going, it is not that I have reached the destination. But it is a path that God has shown me and I am encouraging others to join me in this path of following Jesus. Many of those who listen to my preaching may be ahead of me in that path, but they still need encouragement to stay in the path.

But Paul here was clearly ahead of anyone in his age in that path of following Jesus, that is why he was able to make such bold statements.

Now God has used me and my preaching and is still using them. I am so thankful to God for his mercy and Grace. But I am still not an example in the way Apostle Paul was, nor I consider my self as an example. But I believe God can make me an example because HE who has called me is faithful. This is how I see this article. It only encourages me to be steadfast in this Goal of becoming an example and not just being satisfied with being used by God. We can easily put our focus on being used by God and forget about the higher standard of being an Example.

I think if the title would have been a little different, it may have been better. Maybe something like "7 characteristics of a godly pastor” when he put who he respects and follows, it seems he was putting himself on a pedestal. So I guess in Zac’s world, if you’re a young and upcoming pastor, and be on track to become a Zac, he has no respect for you, or would never give you a listen, that in my world is edging into being prideful. I can appreciate the article, I just think the title takes away from all the good content. I’m not here to judge Zac, but the title of this article seems to me he’s being a little judgemental, and seems to be putting self on a pedestal.

Brothers,

I am not sure where the reaction against brother Zac's article is coming from.
After all, he does say, "preachers I respect and follow" not saying you must do the same, although by implication maybe so. He is also not speaking of Christians in general.

The standards set are all biblical and not too high for a true servant / minister of the gospel...maybe we have just gotten used to lower standards and compromise?

Perhaps this article is also a response to the many so-called "men of God" arising in our day, and the popular preachers of the day, who are often charismatic in personality but a bit underdeveloped character wise.

I think this is a beautiful picture of what being a man of God is meant to be.
Those of us who desire to serve God in this way must know the requirements and earnestly seek that God will make us this type of man.

Blessings,

Brother William, for the record, I don't have any negative reaction to the standards that God set forth. If you notice, God did not say, The Preachers Whom I Respect and Follow "By God". No, God just laid out the standards, that he felt were good and should be a part of our growth, as we mature in our ministry. Again, the title is what bothers me personally, it say's to me, if you are not at these standards in your ministry, I won't respect you and will not follow you.

Don't every Pastor deserve a little growth time? William, please don't jump on the "men of God arising in our day" bandwagon, there were bad Pastors and good ones since the second one, because Jesus was the first one on earth, that held all these standards. Some folks need to get out of the box, because I can tell you without a doubt, they're some wonderful and Godly pastors right now today, so we're going to stereotype them all, just because we haven't heard of them or listened to them? Are some of us so shallow in our thoughts, that we believe there are no more Zac's out there? if so we have a spiritual issue, it's normally called a critical spirit.

Brother William said...After all, he does say, "preachers I respect and follow" not saying you must do the same, although by implication maybe so. He is also not speaking of Christians in general.