A Discussion of God's Judgement Under the New Covenant

Another Brother William quote: "Surely one cannot willy nilly quote scriptures from the OT and broadly apply them to us now, in the NT dispensation?" Ok lets get started.. :-)

Bear in mind that our Lords patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (II Peter 3:15,16)

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, (Romans 3:20-22)

Mr. Bear writes "Bro I'm tempted to say one issue at a time. But I think there is a case for bringing Old Testament scriptures regarding God's judgement."

I agree 100%...I've always believed the "whole" Bible is still relevant today. If you read the 10 commandments are they still relevant today? If so we could all still be very well judged under them from God today, or am I wrong?

Warning is very much in keeping with the NT.

"We proclaim Him, warning and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ."
Colossians 1:28

"These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come." 1 Corinthians 10:11

Of course many of the warnings in the NT pertain to the danger of "falling away.”

The Bible doesn’t say the righteous are never afflicted. It does say, many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them ALL. Psalm 34:19

Most of the warnings to the church ( read the whole of Hebrews) is regarding the need for perseverance in believing in Jesus Christ and the need for resisting sin and pursuing holiness in the fear of the Lord, as exemplified in one portion below:

"Endure your suffering * as discipline; * God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? But if you do not experience discipline, * something all sons * have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. Besides, we have experienced discipline from * our earthly fathers * and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? ** For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness. Now all discipline seems painful at the time, not joyful. * But later it produces the fruit of peace and righteousness * for those trained by it. Therefore, strengthen * your listless hands and your weak knees , * and make straight paths for your feet , * so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but be healed."

I hope and pray that God does have something good for us, all this negative, downtrodden, judgement, persecution stuff is enough to make a person want to run off with the devil.

The true church will be a glory regardless of persecution or non persecution.

I just listened to Art Katz’s "To God be Glory in the Church” again- so incredibly good.

In that message he said something that I had never considered before- namely that God actually has faith that the true church will fulfill his purposes. He has put all His eggs in one basket- the Church.

Bear said "Really. I don't think God sees it that way. He generally uses persecution to purify the church. Also when the church is under persecution is generally when the church is zealous in evangelizing"

Bear maybe so, but I'm just going to be honest with you, because I hope that's what you would want me to do, but all these Persecution and Judgement threads have really depressed me. It makes me ponder, if God is really the good God I have always thought he was. Bear, please remember, we don't all think alike, or understand alike, and maybe that's why I feel the way I do. What all these threads have spoken to me is, death to the American church, kill all of them sinners, yes thats bold, but it's the truth, unless you would prefer me to lie to you.

Hi Mr Bill and others: When subjects like this are discussed, people process what they read differently. Some have difficulty seeing past the dark clouds of gloom because God has issued his decrees of judgment, wrath and condemnation.
We learn by the scriptures how to handle God's decrees of judgment, wrath and condemnation from a New Covenant position and a New Covenant hope.

The New Covenant delivered to the gentiles ( that's me) is discussed at length through the New Testament, I learn from the New Testament how I am to function in this world.

God is the same, he loves what he loved in the Old Covenant and he hates what he hated in the Old Covenant. So, we do not need to wonder if God has changed his mind about any sinful behavior, its condemned. We don't have to wonder about righteous obedience, its approved and rewarded.

When the pagan nations ( not called that now, but our modernity has not changed the appetites of sinful men) are given their time to repent because of the preaching of the gospel, that nation is blessed, spared judgment because salt and light have manifested Jesus Christ. But each nation is given its place and that place in the world is predicated upon two things. 1. The Sovereign will of God; 2. The obedience to Christ whereby that nation derives its blessings.

It has been my observation over the decades to see a great many Pastors, Evangelists, and teachers relegate all calamity to 'the fallen world'. Meaning for them, volcanos, earthquakes, storms are of themselves due to natural conditions. Seemingly distant from the calamities and storms of life, God sits outside of any causation. Either the devil or the natural conditions of the earth are the primal cause.
This kind of thinking creates a disconnect between the God of Old Covenant ruling and judging and New Covenant rule and judging. Their thinking is; "God is good and would never send a storm or earthquake to kill thousands of people". Why would they think this? Because their teachers have taught them a strange thing. What strange thing?
That God who 'loves the world and sent his Son' means that God no longer puts up Kings and takes them down, nor does he raise up nations and put them down. God no longer brings famine, plague, the sword or oppression.
In short these believe when Jesus came into the world, God stopped treating the world as a bunch of pagans who were in rebellion to him, he now treats them as his children ( at a distance) and since we Christians are here everyone reaps the benefits of safety and security.

But the history of the ungodly nations and of Jesus Church no where resembles this explanation of calamity.
Like the Old Testament, the people of God are persecuted and the pagans are livin-large, having one big festival while they honor their false Gods. This exact same thing is happening today, it takes no scholar, prophet or wise man to recognize God gives the ungodly nations a space to repent while he raises up his Church.
We see in our own country, the ungodly live like there is no judgment for Sodom or destruction for Babylon, they are afflicted and yet rejoice in themselves. They are suffering, ruined, destroyed, homes, lands, jobs, businesses, church buildings all covered with water or blown to the fields by winds. Yet, they say 'Where is God, we will require of him an explanation for who he claims to be and what he has done". They are quick to judge God and quick to condemn righteousness and truth.

America has a space, it has a duration, God has decreed a time for this nation like all other nations and then the end of it will come.
But we believers are subversive to our own country, we seek to bring in the reign of a greater leader, bring in and honor higher laws and commandments than these we live under now. We seek another kingdom, a rule of God superseding the debased wisdom of human government.

This demands a conflict and it will eventually bring us into confrontation. This present pagan world brought to confrontation with God's people and God's word.

There is nothing about the judgment of this nation, its government, laws, leaders and culture that should lead us to despair. We as believers have been on a quest to subvert it anyway, those who seek the kingdom of God will run diametrically opposed to political engines, propaganda or leaders.
This very thing our Chinese brothers do, our Syrian brothers do, our Indian brothers do.

We believers will go on, we will not fall unless we cease to be salt and light. The prayer and exhortation is for all of us to remain salt and light in the face of seemingly incredible odds.

I am a patriot, I love my country and I thank God for it and pray God preserve it...for one reason alone, that God may continue to raise up his Church and bring in the elect of God wherever they may be. When God is finished using this nation for his purposes ( not mine or yours) His Church will go on and he will raise up another to take it's place...and the great conflict and confrontation will continue with that nation and those people.

We are not doomed by the judgment of God upon this nation. Israel was not doomed because Babylon fell, or because the Medes and Persians rose to power. Israel lived and moved forward by the grace and preserving and sovereign will of God. Rome tried to crush Israel and it did not, it tried to crush the Christians but instead the rock made without hands hit the feet and brought it down, and that rock became a great mountain...we are that mountain as prophecied, we are living stones we make up the temple of God regardless of the passing of Rome, Europe or America. Our vision and hope is in Christ.

Our warnings are for the sake of Jesus Christ who purchased out of this pagan nation a people for himself, it is not because the nation deserves a deliverance.

I’m not a teacher so I will just add one note and hopefully Marvin or Fletcher or someone better versed can add body. Judgement from God to a society is different than that of His own children, when directed at us it is remedial,even in death, according to Cor., to society it is felt as anger and brings with it a ton of guilt, condemnation and a lot of other stuff.

//Really. I don't think God sees it that way. He generally uses persecution to purify the church. Also when the church is under persecution is generally when the church is zealous in evangelizing//

That’s all fine and dandy but Jesus said not to worry about tomorrow because today has enough trouble of it’s own. That pretty sage advice coming from Someone who should know. If we worry today about what might happen tomorrow we torture ourselves twice if the thing we worry about actually comes to pass

In other words, why fret and worry about a possible persecution? If it happens God will give grace to those who seek it. Besides, it may not happen in our lifetimes.

Every time Bear brings up these persecution threads I say the same thing- no where are we commanded to seek for persecution or pray for it to come. What we are told to do is to be prepared and we do that by guarding our walk.

Only a weirdo would desire persecution to come. I’m not talking about little "p” persecution that should come from time to time but rather big "P” persecution where Christians are thrown into FEMA death camps as Bear so lovingly brings up on a regular basis. I for one do not want to see fellow brothers and sisters beaten or killed and I repeat that anyone who prays that such a thing would come to pass so that the church would be "purified” is wacko.

Hi Brother Miller:

God's chastening of his Church is for his glory, our growth in holiness and righteousness. As another poster quoted Hebrews he is spot on. God can and will use whatever seems fitting to him to purify his people. Some it will be persecution, others a bombardment with entertainment and a sexually saturated culture. We didn't get to pick which one we got and even if we move to another culture, we do not move out of reach of God's purifying hand.
Israel was told this by Jeremiah, that if they obeyed and went into captivity, it would be their blessing, to run to Egypt or to the other nations, God would see to it they died there just as if they were slain by the Chaldeans.

But we must remember there is another player, Satan; he comes to steal, kill and destroy. His death camps are designed to instill apostasy from the faith. His persecutions are designed to pit man against man, increasing the guilt of the wicked by killing the child of God, thereby incurring God's wrath on top of his own selfish sins.

Satan vies for the power plays, he moves his princes of darkness to instill idolatry, create a mood in the people to hate the light and love their sins, this all being done simultaneously while God works all things together for good for the saints of God and yet rewards the sinner with a death-wage.

The ungodly nations are simultaneously directed and ruled by God's power as he wills, yet Satan is permitted to gain entry into leaders and cultures infecting the souls of men with ideologies that lead them into more darkness and more rebellion. However evil and however horrible the state of the wicked is, God punches through it all with the weakness of a gospel preacher, the foolishness of a gospel testimony, the reading of scripture, the kindness of God's people. God is able to crack open the hardest hearts, shatter the mightiest strongholds and he does it with a still small voice to an available and obedient believer.

Who in their right mind desires the evil day? I dare say no one here, but it might be there are many evil days ahead and our prayers of revival may not stop any of them, in fact God may answer with revival while in those evil days. Ask the Chinese if this is true?
God is well able to deliver his people and yet able to deliver the wicked to judgment all in the same day, all in the same circumstance, all done even by the will of Satan and pagan kings. Ask Daniel how it went when he came to the lions den and how it was for his accusers when they went to the lions den. God is able and willing.

It is true the righteous are killed all day long. But I ask you, are not the wicked brought down every day? Are not the ungodly with their ungodly speeches and hard words against God and against his people brought down to hell? They are and that by the millions.

The heart of God's people are as Stephen, who when martyred Jesus just 'stood by' while he was stoned. But was it because Jesus didn't listen to Stephen? I dare say its because Stephen was heard that he died. His death and testimony has shown to untold millions what it is to love Jesus Christ and what God will do...as the Saul's of this world stand by approving. God knows how to knock someone off their horse and turn them into a Paul.

We win in death, we win in life, we win in persecution we win in every circumstance because "I have overcome the world" Jesus said.

To your point brother miller, We do not see how God is raising up nations and putting them down as the prophets of old have seen. But we can see Jesus raise us up and raise up his Church if we will put our faith and hope in our overcoming Lord. The means he uses is a minor point, the power he uses is resident within us.

To tell America she will die if she forsakes God is not necessarily prophetic...It's just plain chapter and verse.