Unconditional love - Really?

I hear this phrase "unconditional love” in Christian circles all the time and it bugs me.

I am not convinced that this is actually a right depiction of God’s love for all of us. We must differentiate between God’s love for fallen mankind at the cross and the personal love of God to the saint.
God does provide elementary things to sustain human life on earth such as food, drink, shelter, and other means, but this is just common grace extended to sinners and saints alike. The only expression of love for fallen mankind is described in John 3:16. Other than that I do not think that God has a personal love toward those who live in rebellion to him.
God cannot love sinners on a personal level before they actually repent. Sin is so repulsive to God that He had to take the utmost measure to deal with it ”“ to let his Son die on a wooden cross at the hands of sinners. Only when we respond to His offer on the cross and repent and believe can we transfer from a wretched state to a blessed state of God’s pleasing.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
If Sinners are still under the wrath of God, how can he love them on a personal level?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Only when we come to repentance and faith can God’s love be experienced on a personal level:
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
The only but utmost love for sinners is displayed at the cross ”“ and there is no other expression of God’s love to fallen mankind.

The second phrase that bugs me is "God accepts people just as they are”. It sounds nice and kind of God, but it makes light of sin in effect. How can a God that accepts everyone as they are still command "men everywhere to repent” Acts 17:30.
I think we should better accept God as He really is and acknowledge Him in everything. This attitude will greatly help us to progress and reveal us that we are not accepted as we are but rather "accepted in the Beloved”. Eph 1:6.
We must look to Christ for everything. We must yield our everything to Christ and God will do a work our grace despite our frail humanity. We must not seek to fix our old but rather see him crucified so that our new man in Christ liveth.

//God cannot love sinners on a personal level before they actually repent. //

Are you sure you meant to type that?

Hi narrow:

This subject is like a bag of cats all jostling around in the bag and you just opened the bag to pull one out. But in pulling one out 3 more claw their way out too.

I appreciate questions like this because the answers cannot be found by mere skimming the bible for love verses. The answers are for many a little scary and for some, once they realize there is a biblical and accurate way to understand these things, are not obtained easily but it comes at a price...diligent study.

Narrow, you'll go a few rounds talking circles with folks unless you clarify some basic premises.
Who obtains the blessings of covenantal love?
Who obtains the blessings without covenantal love?
Jesus loves sinners? That means what?
Jesus accepts sinners? That means what?
Jesus died for sinners? That means what?

When these things are ironed out in your own mind ( I'm not saying they are not already clear) your approach to Christian axioms "God's unconditional love for everyone" will drastically change.

Example: Lets say you believe God only loves the elect. In this case when you present the gospel to an unbeliever, your witness is modified. In the past you might say "Jesus loves YOU!" But now, you say "Jesus came to save sinners" and leave off the personal pronoun, but instead 'label' the person in terms of their current covenantal status.
Why the change? Because for you, you don't know if God actually loves them specifically and in fact your message is not to declare to the unbeliever 'covenantal love', but rather if God gives them repentance and faith and they believe upon Jesus...they will declare themselves that God loves them.
For others, this kind of God is scary; namely because they are not in the drivers seat driving their life with the license that "God loves me"; in their heart they say "I'm not on love with God and don't know if I want to be."

I hope you can see where this is going? Do you want to declare a gospel that assumes the covenantal love of God to an unbeliever when in fact there is nothing in scripture or the world that necessitates God love them? In this case you may sense that you are presuming on God.

Other cats get out of the bag too, namely can God love those upon whom his wrath is currently upon them? Is this a contradiction to electing love? Is it a contradiction to the gospel?

Anyway Narrow, the cats are out, but who will respond willing to put one back in?

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8

35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luke 6:35-36

I agree with your statement on repentance. God can accept any being only when they repent from their own ways. No one either born again or not, cannot be accepted by God without repentance.

But I still believe God loves sinners but he hates sin. It is like I as a father love my child but hate the sickness in them. So I have to restrain my children from those things that make them sick.

Prodigal Son's case is a clear example, the father could accept the Son only when he repented. But the father loved the son all the time, yet he chose not to visit his son when he was longing for pigs food.

A born again person living in sin beaks his fellowship with God. But God still loves him.

A perfectly loving God should also punish the sinners because they have sinned against his other children whom also God loves. God cannot show partiality if he perfectly loves them. Hence a loving God has to show his wrath.

When I tried to end my life as a person who was hateful toward my Mum I heard God's audible voice which resonated with love for me . But he also revealed to my heart a few minutes later that I was condemned. I had believed that there must be an after life and if I was good and kept doing good things that I would receive it.

That's when I was shown I was forbidden from it. It gave me a terrible depression but a short while after I found salvation and was born again of the Holy Spirit through a preacher in our city centre.

I don't know if God loves everyone but just thought I would say he does love the lost.

A few quick points;
1- Jesus loves everyone
2- Jesus’s love is not tantamount to salvation
3- repentance positions us to receive/actualize Gods love which can lead to salvation
4- Gods attributes are mutually inclusive, meaning He doesn’t stop one to initiate another; Gods love, justice, wrath, mercy, etc... are simultaneous

The gospel has been reduced (in many circumstances) to "God loves you”
without a sobering call to repentance- FACT
The apostles were murdered in the streets for the message they proclaimed- FACT
The message they proclaimed wasn’t simply "Jesus loves you”- FACT

So the "question of Gods agape love for the world” is (for me) without question, for He has clearly and eternally expressed that by the cross of Christ-
(For me) the question is how we respond to Gods love demonstrated in Christ and Him crucified... ie; do we love Him???

If we do we will obey Him and when we fail His grace, we will ask forgiveness and repent believing He is faithful to restore and empower us to walk upright before Him as a testimony to a lost and dying world~

The cross is the one and only and all sufficient expression of God's love to sinners. There is no other.

The biblical gospel message to the Gentiles should not be "God loves you" but repent and believe, as per Acts 17. I do not see any precedent in the bible where someone said "God loves you" to an unbeliever, neither Jesus, Paul, or Peter.

We must talk to them about sin, righteousness and judgment the same thing that the Holy Spirit convicts.

The Gentiles have the witness of creation. The Jews have the law and the prophets that point to the Messiah, Acts 2, 3 7 and 13.

Once you repent an believe the love of God can be experienced on a personal level otherwise you are still under Gods wrath. Paul give a very detailed explanation of the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles in Romans. He starts in chapter 1 with the wrath of God and elaborates on man's perversion. Now after 2000 years we think we know better and preach "God loves you"

//I do not see any precedent in the bible where someone said "God loves you" to an unbeliever, neither Jesus, Paul, or Peter.//

Maybe not, but that does not mean it’s not a true statement. Plus you are forgetting that Jesus didn’t have to tell them because he loved them in a practical manner.

You would not be able to count the number of times that Billy Graham told his audience that God loved them. Why did he tell them this? Because it’s truth right out of Bible!

Amen Bear. God is love. He can't deny Himself.

Rusty

I knew that this passage would come up and I cannot deny that Jesus showed him his love that moment. The word is indeed agape. Point taken. I think the young man triggered Jesus love for the first steps he took: running to him, kneeling, wanting to do something to attain eternal life. He was on track to break through and Jesus wanted him to succeed.

It was this drawing grace that came out of Jesus that moment because he wanted to draw him against a strong force lurking inside that poor fellow. In the end, the appeal of wealth and honor prevailed in this tug-of-war in his soul.

But where is he now? He is most likely condemned without parole. He went away grieving and is in much stronger grief now. He is under the wrath of God now.

Is that unconditional love? Did Jesus show the same love for both dying thieves, Herod and Pilate?
There was the expression of ultimate love for them at the cross for them - and it was rejected.

I was hoping someone would see what I see when questions like that are asked. You actually have to go back and take a closer look at scripture without adding your own emphasis.

Many texts suggest the love of God while we were enemies of God.
Roms 5. "While we were yet sinners"
John 3 "For God so loved the world he gave"

and other more specific such as bear quoted. "Jesus loved him"

There is no question God loves people while they are yet in their sins, but maybe another question needs to be asked and bears text explicitly denotes the quandary.

Jesus loved him, but he went away, disobedient, unsaved, unwilling.
Telling folks "God loves you" can have the same effect as Jesus love toward the rich young ruler, Jesus loved...the ruler didn't want Jesus.

To Narrow's point, telling folks "God loves you" can in fact be misleading in that if they "know God loves them" it's difficult to send someone you love to hell, therefore they may stay their own course because fear of judgment is mitigated.

But remember the scripture contains more text than this.
"all that the Father giveth me, cometh to me." Jn 6:37.
Another question is raised.."did not the Father give to Jesus the rich young ruler?" He may not have, therefore he didn't come.

The point is, Jesus even when he loved, didn't use that as the motivational point for his calling to the young man.
He actually used the law and compassion to certify whether or not the young man would take up following Jesus with the other 12.

Romans 8:38-39 New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I see our Father’s Love as conditional in the sense of where it can be accessed - only IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.
Blessings

Showing that Jesus on the earth loved sinners (using rich young ruler) does not prove that God loves sinners. Jesus when he was on earth, he was 100% man and 100% God. As a Man he had to obey the command to 'love your neighbor'. If Jesus did not love the sinners around them then he has sinned which does not qualify to be a sacrifice.

But in New Covenant, Jesus gave us a new Command to Love our brothers (John 13:34). This command is higher than 'love your neighbor'. The reason being God shows a special higher standard of love to Born again believers who follow Jesus. Hence we who are born again should also reciprocate the same love towards our brothers.

//But where is he now? //

Some folks think he was Joseph of Arimathea

Lots of cats coming out of the bag. The hypostatic union, the covenant of God, God's love for his people, God's universal call, man's unwillingness to say "yes" to Jesus even when Jesus gives a direct invitation to become a disciple. Obedience to the gospel, covenantal promises given to covenantal people.

Roms 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

So what does it mean when God "commends his love toward us?"
Does it mean show, or prove or recommend?

And to Narrow's point; when is the love of God shed abroad in our hearts? Is it when we are in rebellion to God? Or is in reconciliation to God?

If its in our rebellion, is that love toward sinners "as they are" meaning 'unconditionally' or is the point of knowing the love of God meant to be understood only in terms of reconciliation with God?

Can a sinner 'know the love of God' and not be transformed by it? Is there a difference between an unbelievers knowledge of the love of God and a Christians knowledge of the love of God? What makes the difference?

I understand the scripture to hold out to the sinner that God's love can be known and received. But while the sinner is still in his rebellion, the love of God that he might come to know will never be known ( in terms intimate knowledge of God's goodness toward him) until he has been reconciled. This is part of the gospel, that God's love can be known and received, but as Narrow so clearly remarked, telling unbelievers they are 'loved of God' is at best a half/truth and may in fact be a whole lie.

It is God's proper right to prove, show and commend his love towards those whom he has chosen to love and elect. The gospel does not include this secret knowledge, our message is to declare what can be known. "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners".

When God has done his work of reconciliation this follows.

Roms 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

This whole thread is ridiculous.

"For God didn’t give a rip about the world but He gave His only begotten son anyway [who was brutalized and crucified by the way ] so that whosoever [ie the folks God can’t stand] believes on Him shall not perish (much to God’s disappointment) but have everlasting life.”

The only problem is that’s not what the Bible says, thank goodness.

Todd: Narrow made some pretty strong judgments on just how we should speak of the love of God.

I think this is a good way to lay out what scripture says, I feel the thread if far from ridiculous, reviewing our assumptions is not a bad thing.

Questioning how we speak of the love of God in a clear biblical manner is a good thing too.

It's a fair question to ask " If God loves me, why am I on my way to hell? That doesn't sound like a loving God to me!

It's because unbelievers ( when they have the audacity) sometimes do ask those kinds of questions that discussions on this topic can bring biblical answers.

I personally enjoy these discussions because when I teach new believers and unlearned believers, I get to read and consider viewpoints far different from my own. I want to learn so that I may help the faith of others.

A great brother in the faith once said "Is Jesus Lord?"
I said, yes he is Lord. He said "prove it". It is that kind of questioning that lead me to think clearly why I believe what I believe.

so, here I am.

Im sure not asking questions in order to depict God as an unwilling savior who derives more pleasure in punishment than mercies. What we all want to do is depict God accurately out of love for God.

I hope you will give it a second chance.