Salvation = obedience?

Per some of the recent threads, I am wondering what the thoughts, of the saints on SI, are regarding the role (if any) of obedience in relation to salvation/eternal life with Christ?

Hi Fletcher: I believe in a monergistic salvation. God undertook to bring our perfection to us by everything done in terms of giving of the law to the sacrifices to the giving of His own Son.
Our part is to act upon a God given faith, believe in a God given word, obey a God given gospel, and we only do this when God's Spirit has planted the word in our hearts and given us his gift of faith to act upon what we believe.

Our salvation, reconciliation, redemption, new birth and indwelling Spirit are the invisible workings of God upon the human heart. We are recipients from beginning to end of God's grace.

The unredeemed have no free will only an enslaved will, they are dead in sins, therefore if they do attempt to gain from God it will be a dead work. If while they are yet unredeemed they undertake to fulfill the law, to act in obedience to God for God's sake, that man/woman will fail miserably.

It is not until God's electing love works by the Spirit of God to birth us and indwell us do we have any power or willingness to live rightly according to the scripture.
At that point, as saints we believe the promises that God's law is not external but written in our hearts. We believe God's love is evident to us because what the cross means and who was raised up on that cross become more precious than life. We recognize that we are now his and crucified with him. His kingdom and his will and his life are utmost; therefore obedience, good works, fruitfulness are the normal outcome of being united to Christ.

We have no part to play in earning, meriting, gaining pity or moving God's heart towards us because there is some intrinsic goodness and value that obligates God not to waste such a creation and so accordingly sound wisdom dictates he save us. But God has no such obligation set upon his grace, his grace is free, his love is free and his election is according to his own willing.

The sinner is dead and therefore anything contributed by the sinner is also dead. It is not until God's Spirit has planted the word in us and with it births us...by his own power are we capable of being sons of God and giving to God the love and worship and service he deserves.

Your thoughts are well ordered and arranged in an articulate, and I believe accurate, expression of your doctrine and while you already know I do not personally subscribe to a reformed grace position, I nonetheless am blessed by your earnestness, honesty and willingness to help me to understand better your understanding:)
Though we may rub on some points there are many you have drawn out that we are wholeheartedly in agreement upon, and for that I am truly grateful-

Thank you dear brother for taking the time to respond, I’m hoping to get a better understanding of how other saints view different points of doctrine without dividing over our perceived differences, as such you have made a notable contribution and I hope to hear more:)

Brother Fletcher,

thank you for the very gracious words to me. I have no peace-time brothers, I have only war-time brothers. That means anyone who is born of God is with me not against me, he is of the same body, born of the same Spirit, serves the same God, redeemed and loved by the same Christ. I link arm in arm with any Arminian as I would a Calvinist, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, Jesus commands me to love and those who are born of God love those who have been born of God. 1Jn5:1.

Peace-time brothers are those whom you can reject if they don't fit into your camp. The older I get the more truth I see in Christ making us one body with one Spirit having one Lord I am the better and the wiser to join ranks with those whom Christ has enlisted in his army.

"Most of the discussion on this topic centers on what the true Gospel requires of us. The biblical answer begins with repentance, faith, baptism and continued, loyal obedience to Christ. But identifying what the Gospel requires of us is not the same thing as saying what the true Gospel actually is. This list of duties correctly identifies the proper response to the Gospel””not the Gospel itself.

The Gospel is a particular message of good tidings, heralded through Christ and the apostles (but only rarely by modern evangelists). It is called "the Gospel of the Kingdom" (e.g., Matt.4:23; 9:35; 24:14), because it is the proclamation of the presence of another Kingdom and another King””one Jesus (Luke 2:10-11; Isa.52:7; Acts 17:7; 20:25). This entire proclamation can be summarized by the original Christian confession: "Jesus is Lord [i.e., King]." This is what one must confess, in order to be saved (Rom.10:9). It is because He is the King that we must repent (of our former neglect of His lordship), trust Him, and be baptized into His alternative, royal society. Obedience is the obvious response to Lordship:

"Why do you call me 'Lord,' 'Lord,' and you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely. This is what happens when one hears, believes, and does not rebel against the proclamation of Christ's Kingship. Baptism is the public submission to the Crown, and a pledge to loyally follow Him until death. Many reduce the Gospel to a decree of justification only. However, justification, in the context of the Kingdom of Christ, is simply the amnesty granted by the King to penitent rebels, as they return in submission to the Authority they formerly spurned.

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.”
~~Steve Gregg

Wow!!!

As I was reading over your submission, I confess that I was thinking "wow, brother Todd has really dug into this one” and then I get to the end and see it was Steve Gregg’s words...

Tho they may not be penned by you, the very fact you submitted them as a response says that they speak your position, reflecting accurately your understanding and I must say there were several times while reading that I not only agreed with but thought, "wow that was very well articulated” as some of these turns can get sticky and murky yet the writer (Steve Gregg) was able to navigate these with a learned hand, having himself been confronted by them before.

Brother Todd this submission too is very much a blessing to me and I’m grateful for it and for you taking the time to select and submit it,..
Thank you!!

Yes- he very plainly is able to express my thoughts on this issue and, for me at least, explains convincingly how obedience is linked to salvation.

We don’t have kings any more so sometimes that idea is difficult for us to grasp.

But there are examples of good kings”” I always think of Aragon from The Lord of the Rings. If I vow fealty to such a king, but at every turn try to figure out ways to avoid his directives, or do not cooperate in his purposes or even actually oppose his reign by subtle or outright subterfuge, can I really be described as a person who has truly sworn fealty to the king?

I was always struck by the "conversion” statement of Marcellus from "The Robe:”

"From this day forward, I am enlisted in His service. I offer Him my fortune, my sword, and my life. And this I pledge to you on my honor as a Roman.”

Very much relate to the "King” analogy-
Seems fitting:)

Another one is;
Is Jesus the producer and director of your life?
That’s not to say you won’t miss your lines or go off script from time to time and even occasionally get out of character,... but that’s where grace comes in to enable faith to fill in those gaps, encouraging us to continue to follow His direction to lead us and His production to supply us.
This is analogous to how (I see) our obedience to God working-

Very good contributions everyone. I myself am coming around to the position of salvation as allegiance to a Sovereign. We probably won't perfectly act in accordance with our pledge but if we return humbly to the path of submission we know we belong to God. A book that speaks of this is by Matthew Bates. It is titled: "Salvation by Allegiance Alone: Rethinking Faith, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus the King"
I am still reading it. If you read the reviews, there are some nit-picks here and there but overall I think the thrust of it is on-target.

https://www.amazon.com/Salvation-Allegiance-Alone-Rethinking-Gospel/dp/0801097975/

-Daniel

I see the gospel presentation is actually two part.

The first part of the gospel is the introduction of the law and Christ's fulfillment of the law, making himself the perfect sacrifice. All this is to clear the way for redemption and reconciliation between a rebellious man and a good God. Once God has effected a change of heart, the sinner believes, repents and calls upon God. Now God's intention from the beginning is realized...God dwelling in man.
The second part of the gospel is man's new relation to God, where God now lives in us and through us to fulfill the commands he has given and make us fruitful as Christ was fruitful. Our life is to be depiction of the gospel and kingdom rule, whereby even when we sin, God's grace which is abundant in Christ is given and the believer continues to move toward more and more conformity to Christ's own life.

The gospel reconciles, then it sanctifies. The gospel redeems, then it bears fruit. The gospel offers alienated man a new heart to begin a new life in a real relationship with God. When that new life is indwelling by the Spirit, new works, new ambitions, new plans, new service, new attitudes, new surrenders, new sacrifices all emerge.

The good news for a sinner is he can be reconciled and the enmity between him and God done away with permanently. The good news for the Christian is he no longer has a heart for the world or for sin or for self, his heart has God's law written upon it, and it is always in the presence of the Spirit of God.
The sinners heart lived by his own reason
The Saints heart now lives by faith in the Son of God.

A Christian does not reconcile himself, save himself, sanctify himself, remove any enmity, create any new relationship with God. God himself has undertaken that in the work of redemption through Christ.
The Christian learns what it means to live a life of reconciliation, he learns that God transforms his mind, sanctifies his desires, purges his sinful ambitions. The Christian experiences grace instead of the previous alienation, acceptance instead of estrangement, love instead of guilt and shame.

We live what we offer, we speak of what we know, we rejoice to share what we too have received. The gospel we preach is a gospel not only received that brought salvation, but received every day through the power of the Holy Spirit making all that God has promised effectual in us to God's glory.

We are living epistles known and read of all men.

Thank you for sharing the book-
And we find accord in that we probably won’t perfectly accord;)

It’s like acting out a role in a play, no two people would act out the same role identically as each would bring their particular experience and talents into the character even tho the script is the same- much like with the gospel...

Brother Marvin,

I’m definitely tracking with you in your last writing, and see it very similarly:)

As for the Cal/Arm topic...
staying with the director/producer analogy;
The Calvinist essentially see how the director/producer selects/elects specific persons for specific roles-
The Armenian essentially sees the producer/director having auditions where certain persons are selected/elected for specific roles-
While I’m well aware this analogy falls short of the full spectrum, I personally see it as both... the director/producer does have the authority to select whomever He wants apart from any audition, while at the same time holds casting calls and auditions;)

Dear Daniel @ TrueWitness,

I can remember a time when you did not adopt such beliefs concerning the doctrine of salvation (from what I could glean from your forum posts). It is disturbing to see that your position has been evolving away, even departing, from the simple truth of salvation by faith alone, through grace alone.

As a brother in the faith, let me urge you to be prayerful and discerning concerning the "Salvation by Allegiance Alone" book that you are reading. Is it the same gospel that the apostles preached? (Gal 1:8-9)

How is "salvation by allegiance" different from "salvation by works"? If salvation is by allegiance, then what makes the New Covenant any different to the Old Covenant?

You might recall the famous OT passage Joshua 24:19-28, where the Israelites pledge their allegiance to God. If anything, the passage clearly shows that we cannot pledge and fulfill our allegiance to God without *first* being born-again. I trust you are well aware of Gal 3:21-25, which states the entire purpose of the law was to show that we cannot serve God, we cannot live up to our promises, and we cannot remain obedient / in allegiance to God - thus showing our need for Christ.

You wrote that, "We probably won't perfectly act in accordance with our pledge" - so that means if salvation was by allegiance alone, you too agree that you would miss the mark. Let us not water down the meaning of allegiance - allegiance has to be 100% perfect, otherwise it is simply not allegiance. Unless the title is revised from "salvation by allegiance" to "salvation by occasional allegiance" (if you've noticed, those who preach "salvation by works" always attempt to water down the requirements of the law in some way - so that they would qualify).

Finally, I'll flag up Eli Brayley's website - he strives to explain the gospel with precision and clarity, I believe it is a good resource on gospel doctrine: http://www.timothyministry.com/

"My Lunch with Six Mormon Missionaries" is a thought-provoking article on the meaning of biblical repentance, as it pertains to salvation doctrine: http://www.timothyministry.com/2008/03/my-lunch-with-six-mormon-missionaries.html

Eli's testimony is an excellent illustration of gospel doctrine too - God did a great work in his life: http://www.timothyministry.com/2010/05/about-eli.html

I wrote all these out of due concern for a brother, as well as for my Brother's gospel.

//How is "salvation by allegiance" different from "salvation by works"? If salvation is by allegiance, then what makes the New Covenant any different to the Old Covenant?//

You are misunderstanding the order. Allegiance proves salvation but does not "cause” it.

ADD: "We are save by faith, not works. But we are not saved unless our faith works.”

I think Keith Daniel might have said that. It’s always stuck with me as a very simple statement regarding the relation of faith and works.

TMK,

If you read the book reviews on Amazon.com, it would be clear that the book's position is that we are saved by our allegiance to God. That's why it's titled "salvation by allegiance alone".

Addendum:

This article tackles the issue as to whether we are saved by faith or by our faithfulness: http://www.timothyministry.com/2014/07/faith-or-faithfulness.html

I’ve never read the book- you may be right and if so I agree we are not saved by allegiance.

The purpose for God giving His grace in Christ is for the sake of His great name to be honored through the dynamic work He performs in us. The people of the first covenant had profaned His name by their persistent disobedience and He purposes to make a New Covenant where the people would be so dynamically transformed by His working that He would show Himself Holy through their transformed conduct. If we miss this original purpose as stated in Ezekiel 36, we have missed the very heart of why God gives His grace to men.

We are saved unto the good works that have been pre-ordained for us because when men see the good works His grace produces in us - they will glorify Him, this fulfilling the reason He gives us grace.

Our Christ empowered righteous conduct is for the praise of this glorious grace. Obedience is the "end” - the goal of the New Covenant. The Law lacked power to perfect the people,but in Christ the believer is fully endowed with every thing needful for life and godliness. Our obedience is the purpose of grace - where God shows Himself holy through our Christ empowered godly conduct.

The book about salvation by allegiance attacks the watering down of what we call "faith" as being basically just mental assent to facts concerning Jesus: his divinity, his death, resurrection, etc.

We are saved by faith alone but true Biblical faith is stronger than mere agreeing with some doctrines. It is a trusting and adhering to a person, Jesus, who is also divine. Today so many are not trusting in Jesus so much as they are trusting in an arrangement God set up so that if you "believe" in Jesus, your sins are forgiven and when you die, you go to heaven. That is a caricature of the gospel that is sold day in and day out across the land.

Also, while we are not saved by good works. Good works are important. We should reflect in our lives the character of God. We are saved unto good works that we should walk in them. But to make it clear, we don't do good works to impress God of how deserving we are to go to heaven.

And to repeat the words of Jesus: Why do you call me Lord if you don't do the things I say? A saved soul should be affected to the point that they have respect and love for the Lord. And if you love and respect the Lord, your life will reflect that in obedience. Please don't misunderstand me, I am not putting the cart before the horse. Salvation results in obedience, albeit imperfect in this life, and not the other way around. But the problem of "easy believism" is real and must be confronted.

-Daniel

You wrote; "Our obedience is the purpose of grace -”

Amen!!
And I find much of your writing to line up with scripture and my own understanding, as such I very much appreciate your sharing:)