The Temple of God

2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

"Temple" is naos which refers to the inner sanctuary of the Temple. The definite article before naos signifies not just any temple but the specific Temple.

In a parallel description Jesus warned
"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ("The Temple" 2Th 2:4) (let the reader understand)… for then (explaining why the Jews need to flee fast! - Mt 24:16-20) there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. (Mt 24:15, Mt 24:21)

"For a Jew "the Temple" (ton naon) could only denote the holy place of the Jerusalem Temple, that portion into which the priests alone could lawfully go. The construction used (eis with the accusative) implies motion toward and indicates that by his impious act the man of lawlessness puts himself "into" God's seat in the inner sanctuary.

The simplest reading of the plain text is to interpret Paul as referring to a literal Temple of God. And yet many try to spiritualize "Temple of God" For example, Robert Gundry avoids the simple, literal reading of the text, reasoning that since Christian's bodies are characterized elsewhere by Paul as temples of God (which is of course true = 1Cor 3:16-17, 1Cor 6:19, 2Cor 6:16) "it may be better to think of the present text as meaning that "the human being of lawlessness” will arise as an apostate within the church." Note first that Paul does not say the Antichrist will arise but that he will sit! Then using Gundry's interpretation one might paraphrase "he takes his seat in the temple of God" as "he takes his seat within his body the temple of God." That does not even make good sense! As Richard Mayhue says "Figurative meanings for temple are impossible since the lawless one actually enthrones himself." It is amazing to me the nonsense that is accepted when one refuses to accept the plain sense of the text (Text read literally) especially when such a reading makes good sense in context (Keep Context King).

/Then using Gundry's interpretation one might paraphrase "he takes his seat in the temple of God" as "he takes his seat within his body the temple of God." That does not even make good sense!/

I have never quite thought of it that way but it makes sense (or no sense). I believe this passage from II Thessalonians 2:4 is referring to a literal Temple.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation' spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16)

In keeping with literal, plain and common sense interpretation versus over spiritualization, if a real abomination takes place in a real Temple by a real man, how should the following verse 16 be interpreted? JUDEA is in Israel.

In this regard, what of the view that Israel has become irrelevant and will have no part to play whatsoever in a end time scenario? Literally speaking, you have to be in JUDEA before you can flee from JUDEA. Titus performed no abomination in 70 AD by declaring himself to be God in the literal Temple. He tried to keep his troops from destroying the temple and once it was burned it is said he climbed into the temple through a window. Nero had died three years before these events. So I believe we can rightly look for this event to be yet future in a literal Temple in a literal Judea. The amazing thing is that this future scenario was not possible for nearly two thousand years but now Israel and Judea rare full again of Jewish residents. We have come full circle and the abomination has not occurred which ends in the coming of Christ recorded in Matthew 24:31. Why would a literal interpretation of Matthew 24:15 be followed by a spiritual interpretation of Judea as found in Matthew 24:16. That makes no sense!

Blessings.

David,

As you know Luke replaced the term "abomination that brings desolation” with:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Luke 21:20

I was curious what you do with that.

So...to the futurist, none of the verses mentioned had any relevance to the hearers. The "you" wasn't them!

Hey... Fooled ya! None of this applies to ya'll. It's for them people far off in the future in a new land. I really didn't wanna tell ya because then it might not have seemed like the urgent message that I made it out to sound like.

Carry on my _______ son.

Peace when we are done.

Bless the Lord

So who sat in the Temple in 70 AD and proclaimed himself god above all gods? Certainly not Nero nor Titus.

If the tribulation of those days was "the" great tribulation that was to surpass all others, such as never occurred, then where is the physical resurrection of the dead that comes at the end of this tribulation at the last day?

1 At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince which stands guard over the sons of your people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation (compare with Matt 24:21) even to that time, and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book.

2 And many of those who sleep in the earth of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

This great tribulation, a time of trouble such as never was or shall be after it, is followed in close proximity of time by the resurrection of the dead - "many who sleep in he dust of the earth shall awake."

Daniel 12:1 describes the final time of trouble and the very next verse, Daniel 12:2 describes the physical resurrection.

I'm pretty sure the resurrection of the dead did not occur in 70 AD. Nor did Nero or Titus go into the Temple now destroyed and proclaim himself god above all gods. Why would one go into a temple thrown down and burned with fire to declare himself god above all gods? Meanwhile, to say all has already occurred makes it a necessity to spiritualize the resurrection which Daniel nor Christ ever came close to doing.

/As you know Luke replaced the term "abomination that brings desolation” with:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Luke 21:20/

He replaced it?

15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matthew 24:15-16
””””””””””
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,
Luke 21:20-21

Conclusion: Luke, an inspired writer of scripture, seems to say the Roman army was the abomination that brings desolation.

Matthew 16:27,28
"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and WILL THEN RECOMPENSE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Luke 9:26,27
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in his own glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. But I tell you of a truth, There are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Mark 8:38,9:1
"For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

What does Daniel 12:2 mean to you?

What resurrection (coming right after a time of trouble such as never has been - Daniel 12:1), is Daniel 12:2 speaking of?

Frank/David-

I don't pretend to understand Daniel 12. Those who say they have it all figured out probably aren't quite humble enough.

Here's the whole chapter for reference:

"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

1"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?” 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days. 13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

1"At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as has never been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered,

Doc:

Just prior to the resurrection of verse 2 there will be a time of trouble as NEVER HAS BEEN SINCE there was a nation as seen in verse 1.

Jesus quoted Daniel's prophecy in Matthew 24:21 - "For then will be great tribulation SUCH AS HAS NOT BEEN since the beginning of the world, no, nor ever shall be."

"But at that time your people shall be delivered." Your people, Israel, were not delivered in 70 AD. Just the opposite.

"everyone whose name shall be found written in the book." The Book of Life I presume.

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Many if not most commentators refer to this verse as the most clear and unambiguous reference to the resurrection in the entire Old Testament.

So after a time of trouble such as never occurred (which Jesus obviously referred to) in which Daniel's people are delivered, many who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt (see Romans 2:6-9).

4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

At the time of the end there will be a greater interest in the writings of the prophets.

The abomination is spoken of in verse 12:11 and Daniel's own personal physical resurrection is spoken of in verse 13 - But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

All this in the end of days. A time of unparalleled trouble such as has never occurred resulting in Israel's final deliverance and in close time proximity the resurrection(great trouble in verse one and the resurrection immediately following in verse 2).

Time doesn't permit me to discuss other verses etc. Not that I know every single thing about them. But, if 70 AD was the great tribulation such as has never occurred then where is the physical resurrection of the dead that out of necessity should have taken place just after it? I propose Daniel 12:2 was never meant to be spiritualized because the greatest tribulation of all is very closely followed by the physical resurrection of the dead (I Thess 4:15-18).

Maybe so.

I did want to add one thing and that is that I don't see a literal 7 year tribulation period in scripture (nor do many Christians) so in my view you can't easily line up the timing of Jesus' 2nd coming with a specific tribulation period.

That being said, I am certainly glad Jesus will be coming back and pray we have the grace to stand in any tribulation that may be coming.

Thanks for your discussion.

I would say though that we can know that Jesus will return after a time of tribulation such as never occurred. He quoted Daniel almost verbatim when he said, "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Daniel had written,"there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation..." (Daniel 12:1). Daniel 12:2 then describes the resurrection of the dead.

In Matthew 24 if Jesus was referring to the same tribulation as Daniel was referring to then it ends with the resurrection of the dead which makes it impossible for the events of 70 AD to be the time of tribulation Jesus was referring to.

29 "But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matthew 24:29-31)

The timing of the great and final tribulation (triggered by the event of Matthew 24:15) which ends in the resurrection at the coming of Christ can really serve as a plumb line of simplicity. The coordinating the two is really not that difficult if scripture is compared with scripture. It can be a blessing unto edification for the church.

//I would say though that we can know that Jesus will return after a time of tribulation such as never occurred. He quoted Daniel almost verbatim when he said, "Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."//

The problem with that line of thought is this: how can you know that a certain tribulation is the worst that ever shall be? For example, in regard to the *nation* of Israel, i.e. the land of Israel, it would seem the utter destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was the worst that ever was and to date has not been matched. I am not counting the Holocaust during WWII because that was a persecution against Jewish persons but not the corporate nation. 70AD was a judgement on corporate Israel.

Speaking of WWII, it would seem that was the worst tribulation that had ever been to date. But people in the midst of WWII had no way of knowing if there would ever be anything worse.

If WWIII broke out next month, much worse than WWII, how would we know if even that is the worst persecution that ever "shall be?"

"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Charles Spurgeon, Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)

"The account given by Josephus, the Jewish historian who witnessed and recorded the war, is almost an echo of the predictions of Christ. Women ate their own children from starvation; the Jews within the city fought each other as well as the Roman army; on August 10, A.D. 70, the city was stormed and there was a universal massacre; 1,100,000 persons perished, and 100,000 survivors were sold into slavery." B.W. Johnson, 1891

"There have been greater number of deaths - six million in the Nazi death camps, mostly Jews, and an estimated twenty million under Stalin - but never so high a percentage of a great city's population so thoroughly and painfully exterminated and enslaved as during the fall of Jerusalem." (D.A. Carson, "Matthew," in The Expositor's Bible Commentary)

/The problem with that line of thought is this: how can you know that a certain tribulation is the worst that ever shall be?/

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart aleck good bro but it is not as difficult as many may think. The answer is that none of the events you described above ended in the physical resurrection of the dead. The tribulation unlike any other will be triggered by the event Jesus said to look for in Matthew 24:15 - "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Matthew 24:15) THEN shall be great tribulation such as never occurred since the beginning of the world no ever shall be again (Matthew 24:21). It was Jesus Himself who specifically directed us to go to Daniel for a pivotal key in understanding these times and events. So when we see the abomination we can know for sure that the greatest time of trouble worse than any other has arrived. Ending in the physical resurrection which is simultaneous with the second coming AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (Matthew 24:29-31).

True- but you won't know it was the greatest tribulation every known until after the fact, not during or before.

I don't want to get into the whole thing about the abomination, etc. Too many tendrils in this topic!

Christ though clearly explained what would trigger this tribulation - Matt 24:15. That is how we will know.