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Using worldy methods to bring in the unsaved

D
deltadom Apr 28, 2018

I had to move today because a group called potter's House was in the usual place I evangelize the rap music was so bad that you can hear it up the street, it is not pleasant

1 John 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

It is so hard to think that it produces many false converts which saddens my heart and that associate Christianity with this type of thing when biblical Christianity is lost as they communicate a different message that one in the Bible

D
drifter Apr 28, 2018

I'm curious as to what they were preaching through their music/ message? If it's the same ministry operated by T. D. Jakes, that's scary.

However, I do believe God can use rap music, if it's Christ centered.

T.R.U.C.E. is a rap group Nicky Cruz formed to reach young people in ghettos and slums. They preach the gospel and many people are saved, like gangbangers, prostitutes and drug addicts.

T
TrueWitness Apr 28, 2018

Sadly, I am more familiar with what you speak of than I wish I was. I joined an new church here closer to me a while back and felt comfortable in it. At first, I didn't know how to categorize them. They weren't legalistic, not charismatic, not 'evangelical reformed' or any other label I could pin them with. Over time I realized they are definitely 'seeker friendly' but not an extreme example of it. Much of what bothers me is not what is spoken from the pulpit but WHAT IS NOT SPOKEN!

The pastor wants to see many souls brought into the kingdom but is using human reason and means to make it happen. He is against anything that looks like legalism or being 'holier than thou'. I get that and I also would want to avoid that. Unfortunately, he chooses to avoid preaching against sin (in unbelievers or believers lives). I'm sure if you pressed him he would acknowledge that he's against it but you sure don't hear anything in the messages about it probably because he is afraid of being legalistic or judgemental or 'throwing stones'.

So when at the end of the messages rolls around and an evangelistic appeal is made, the emphasis is on forgiveness and the free gift of God in Jesus. I don't think they say the word 'repentance' but perhaps say one sentence about the need to turn away from the 'old life'. They point you to 'believer's baptism'. I agree with this, it is not a criticism. Nobody is referred to as 'sinner' or 'lost' but rather, 'unchurched' as if our greatest need is to get in a church (rolls my eyes). The pastor actually made this statement in a message: "I don't want to be in a church of Christians trying to be better Christians". I don't think every message should be nothing but talking about sanctification and being conformed into the image of Christ but I do think it is important and should perhaps occupy perhaps 25-30% of the preaching/teaching.

So they go from receiving Jesus and forgiveness immediately to service and evangelism without any proper 'discipleship training'. I do think even baby Christians can start witnessing and telling their story to others and God can use that. I believe baby Christians can start doing social gospel type service. I am just dismayed at how getting busy with social gospel type service is done in lieu of any proper study of deeper aspects of New Testament living dealing with full-fledged discipleship. But then that would involve messages about 'dying to self and the flesh'. Most people have problems with that and because it is *possible* that someone could feel condemned with that type of message, they are avoided.

Also, every other week or so the band begins service by playing a secular song (that does not have any obvious sinful lyrics). When Prince died they played Purple Rain. The other week they played All Along The Watchtower. They played We Are The Champions when the local sports team won it all. And this is to make 'unchurched' people feel that we are not 'religious'. And if what they mean by 'religious' means legalistic, judgemental or holier than thou I would wholeheartedly agree. But sometimes I feel that some here think 'religious' also includes showing or expressing love, devotion or piety to an uncomfortable level and it might 'turn off' the unchurched. It seems they love nothing more than to find something that gets close to the line between sinful and OK and stay just this side of OK. They want the world to think of Christians as being like MORAL people of the world but who have an add-on who is Jesus. But we don't want you to think we're weird about it or go overboard into fanaticism. But hey, we do all sorts of social gospel style outreach and service stuff so everything's cool don't you know.

Oh, and church is always cancelled on Super Bowl Sunday. The pastor said "nobody show up anyway" which is an exaggeration but is thrown out there to justify it. And in 2016 when Christmas was on Sunday, no church on that day either. When the local sports team had 'opening day', that Sunday was Team Day at church and a lot of folks wore sport jerseys and hats to church. Again, all of this is done to appeal to the 'unchurched' and make them feel comfortable among us Christians who aren't 'religious'.

Before coming here I had come from a Charismatic church but over the years that movement has lost its way in significant areas. There are many wonderful Charismatics but the leadership won't speak against errors within it. The devil has infiltrated it with lots of goofy teachings and practices and nobody will stand up and call them out on it. That is why I left.

There are conservative traditional churches who are cessationist. Some are legalistic, some not. The services are tightly orchestrated and cannot be considered 'led by the Spirit'. I grew up in these type churches and to me, they just seem dead. Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. The people are mostly sincere and earnest.

So of the 3 types of churches in America: Charismatic, conservative traditional, and seeker friendly, they all have faults. There are things that really bug me about all 3. And I guess being in this seeker friendly church has opened my eyes and I actually think I despise the focus and means in seeker friendly church more than the other 3. There, I said it. I'm leaving and I don't know where I'm headed. Pray for me for wisdom here. Thanks!

-Daniel

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TMK Apr 28, 2018

I agree Nigel- certain youth in certain areas only relate to hip hop/rap.

If the lyrics have a godly message and people are listening, that has to be a good thing.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
1 Corinthians 9:22-23

I get where Dom is coming from because so much of rap music is vile to the core so the issue is whether the style can be redeemed by godly lyrics. That debate has been around a long time.

D
deltadom May 1, 2018

My dad was originally a drug addict and before then my dad was planning to open a drug rehab centre in the UK as he got marvellous saved , I got saved out from the world.
I do not want to live that lifestyle in church.
This is why I think it is fundementally wrong for a church to promote worldly methods to bring in the unsaved.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power


What abhors me is the amount of false Christian converts it produces

My problem is I had this when I was younger trying to relate to us using worldly methods whilst ignoring us as individuals or even answering are questions

Phil Fernandez I think states it is like using methods that the world has already dumped

1 John 2:15
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him

I don't think this verse exists or is even being preached in the church anymore

When I preach on the street it is to save souls and not through my own power as I am weak , Jeremiah and Noah preached to nations and the world when only a few were saved

To me being more faithful in preaching is good , I do not mind changing things such as tracts or tech

D
deltadom May 1, 2018

I have found there church website http://www.pottershouse.co.uk/about-us
But there is no sermons or anything as doctrinal statements can be misleading as people just tend to copy and paste them

What I find so strange is that they ship people in who are not even local to the town to do a concert then leave and then do the same thing like a month later

They are decieved and to me who is there week after week in hemel , just laughs becuase it is so worldly and they are not really commited.

They are not linked to t d Jake's as he is a modialist

Using rap or hip hop just does not work and it is not biblical , the thing is the music was absolutely terrible it was not even good rap or hip hop as you could not hear the lyrics as the sound was terrible .

To me using the bait and switch tactic just does not work

S
staff May 1, 2018

Hi
I think we have to define what a "worldly method" is first.
I think if it portrays the biblical message clearly and without any other message included then it isnt worldly.

For instance Rap could be used if it had a Godly Message.
The problem with Christian Music is an unusual one:
The world doesnt listen to worship music,so its not effective in reaching the world.
So worship music is only good for the Church right?
Not exactly either because Christian Musicians and producers have long since started making their worship music sound worldy so it will become more attractive and in doing so have forgotten who worship music is intended for i.e The Church.
If you are with me alot modern Christian music is neither good for the goose or good for the gander!

FOOTNOTE:The production quality of the songs Christian Musicians and producers make is very good ,its just that the songs themselves are not near the quality of the worlds music because for the most its just uninspired filler.urs staff

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deltadom May 2, 2018

The world doesnt listen to worship music,so its not effective in reaching the world.
So worship music is only good for the Church right?

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

This is the whole point the church is suppose to be a sanctuary from the world , in the Bible we commanded to preach the word to reach the lost so it not our own methods
God reaches the lost , i would say worship music is good for church.

Love not the world nor the things in the world becuase the love of the father is not in you

If I am rescued from things such as nightclubs and drink and drugs , I do not want to go to church and hear the same music in the church to lead me back to that lifestyle , this is why the church has got to be other

This what so sickens me about the worldlyness in the church , as people stay in there sins

S
staff May 2, 2018

Hi Delta
I think thats my point the worship music we are getting needs to be straight good quality worship music(most of it isnt)
and if we want to reach the lost with Christian music then it shouldnt be worship music and it should be the very best and inspired from heaven

ur qoute:
God reaches the lost , i would say worship music is good for church.

Love not the world nor the things in the world becuase the love of the father is not in you

If I am rescued from things such as nightclubs and drink and drugs , I do not want to go to church and hear the same music in the church to lead me back to that lifestyle , this is why the church has got to be other

T
TMK May 3, 2018

Hey Staff I was curious about who you think puts out high quality worship music- I realize this is rather subjective but I was wondering who you liked (so I can check it out if I don’t know them).

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drifter May 3, 2018

What about rock music? It seems to me God used people like Keith Green powerfully. I know there is a lot of so called christian music out there that does not honor God at all.

I just don't see why God can't use different kinds of music (please keep in mind I was once strongly opposed to any christian rock; I thought it was worldly and not of God at all.) But look at the fruit of Keith Green or Dallas Holm, for example. They are not worldly; they have a burning desire for holiness and to see people saved. Both of them knew David Wilkerson, Dallas toured with him for years, and Wilkerson is the last person I would accuse of lukewarmness or producing false converts.

Dominic, I know you love Jesus, so don't take this the wrong way, but you (and me, and every other christian) have to make sure we don't get trapped in a theological box; we can't make the road too broad, but we can't make it narrower than God makes it.

God bless friend.

S
staff May 3, 2018

Hi TMK,
Thats a really great question.I want you to get inside my head a bit before I answer.I have been lead I believe to produce music even though I cant sing or play any instrument.My method of production is this I come up with the music first and the criteria is this,The music has to be Catchy or Beautiful or both.If it isnt the song doesnt go any further.I then put the lyrics to the song.My music is not worship music but Christian music for the unsaved.
For me the benchmark of a modern worship song is hillsong Oceans and im not nessacarily a hillsong fan.With this song they got amazing music and godly lyrics thats up there with any secular music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy9nwe9_xzw
Also they got hillsong got it right again with "Healer" if you can look past all the controversy regarding the singer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpR0TNxtS2k.
Again this song has amazing music and thats the basis but only the basis for a great Christian worship song you also have to add the inspired lyrics.So for me the music has to be really good so that you would hum the music even without words in it. Here is a link to my first youtube video of music my stuff.The songs have a Christian message but are mostly not worship and sometimes are just a pointer to one of Gods attributes or a biblical truth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQoUJNPDKs&t=14s

Anyway I know its subjective but its not completely subjective some music is just great to almost all people.What is your idea of a good worship song?urs staff

T
TMK May 4, 2018

I agree Hillsong has some very powerful songs lyrically and musically.

I *really* liked your song and video- very well done. It is reminiscent of several artists that I like a lot.

S
staff May 4, 2018

Thanks TMK,
I felt with the SOS song that God was saying John Harper is an unsung hero and I want you to honour him and in doing so some people might ask who is John Harper and why was he a hero.The second song The Big Sleep is a lullaby about waking up and making a song for heaven and earth to sing for God together and then at the end of the day going back to bed.So they tell a little story each and the whole Album(not complete yet due to finances)you get the complete story about who is God ,what are is characteristics and attributes and why I need him in a genre the world might listen too.They are mainly Pop or I call them "POP HYMN" My aim is too put Christian Music's best foot forward .
It is an absolute time consuming and financial struggle but I believe they are inspired and hope for a breakthrough.
I also like the songs bro Frank posts with a singer Aileen Gilchrist ,very effective lyric,music and vocals.I think some are in the SI archive urs staff

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ginnyrose May 4, 2018

I have been reading the book of Ezekiel - have studied it before but it has been a long time.

When I read the prophets, the message they share with the people I wonder how moderns would react? And they spoke as the LORD told them to. Talk about drama, unconventional drama...and God says no one would listen. Hmmmm I see where God is more interested in the speaker being obedient then being successful in his preaching - maybe this is the lesson God wants people to take note of.

Sandra

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deltadom May 5, 2018

Talking about worship music I worked in the christian bookshop and used to play christian music every day and review it, I live in Hemel Hempstead and used to go to matt redmans church.

I do not have any problems with songs even some of hillsongs songs such as mighty to save or others, some I do but theologically some worship songs are compleltly of the wall.

When we are measuring standards who's are they? because normally musicians tend to look at the beatles and then compare that to say christian music whilst and say that the beatles is better than christian music. I am just using them as an example.

When it comes to Christian music it is the lyrics and whether music can be placed side by side with the world and you can see any difference.

What I also hate with these types of groups is that use worldly methods is that there is no expostion of scripture, how is a new convert suppose to grew if you do not go through the scriptures, what ends up happening is they become a rapid atheist who has tried christianity and hates it after three years at a mega church

T
TMK May 5, 2018

Dom-

I agree that much of today's "Top 40" contemporary worship music that gets a lot of airplay on the radio is very shallow, and with the change of a few words could be a country love song. And they want it that way! Personally, I can't listen to it. On the way to church on Sunday morning I put on the classical station that plays sacred classical music on Sunday mornings. But I have a lot of very good worship music on iTunes and Spotify and I would not call it "pop" Christian music.

You really have to search elsewhere to find deeper Christian music.

I know that you were only using the Beatles as an example, but it is a good one. What if there was a Christian worship band who had the musical creativity and talent of the Beatles?

Staff's point along these lines is that the talent and giftings of truly Christian musical artists should FAR EXCEED that of the Beatles. Why? Because look at Who **should be** inspiring their music!

If there is music in heaven (Not sure about this, scripture doesn't tell us) will it only be mediocre? I sort of doubt that.

I related a dream I had on another thread and in part of that dream there was a worship song playing and I was holding the sheet music in my hand and the music was so overwhelming that all I could do was tremble-- In the dream, I tried to speak to describe it but was physically unable to do so- it was so unutterable I could not get any words out.

sermonindex May 5, 2018

I don't see music being used in evangelism in the Bible. It is the preaching of the Word with signs following. Much of Today's western church is powerless so it has to use gimmicks to get an audience. If the blind see, the sick are made well, & the dead are raised to life - as they were in the 1st century church - then gimmicks are unnecessary. Theological arguments are unnecessary. It is simply JESUS being preached & demonstrated as being in our midst.

I've played guitar for 40 years & worked professionally in secular music as well as (mega)church music. Some nice tunes along the way, but they are no replacement for an anointed Word going forth with salvation, healing, & deliverance as the result.

Most of the "successful" churches in the western world today are all about the hashtag, branding, marketing demographics, & big business strats----all wood, hay, & stubble.

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TMK May 5, 2018

//Most of the "successful" churches in the western world today are all about the hashtag, branding, marketing demographics, & big business strats----all wood, hay, & stubble.//

Ain’t that the truth. We had to leave our last church for that very reason. Couldn’t stomach it any longer.

S
staff May 5, 2018

Hi Delta,
Ur Qoute
"When it comes to Christian music it is the lyrics and whether music can be placed side by side with the world and you can see any difference."

For me its the music,the music has to be top class.Why? because the music is the "delivery system" or the "postman" if you like.If the music isnt any good no matter how Godly or theologically sound the lyrics are they dont get delivered,they just wont.I look at it like sending a letter,you have the envelope(the music) and the letter(the lyrics) and the stamp(the quality of the music) or the seal that delivers the letter to its destination.If it has a quality sound it will get delivered over and over again. Put even another way if the music is not important then instead of writing christian songs ,write Christian poetry but Christian poetry is not as effective for a few reasons,urs staff

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