I dont know how I would survive the Tribulation

Revelation 13:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Sorry for all the Pre Tribulation as you do not believe in this !

I am just arguing from a Post Tribulation and everyone else who thinks that they will go through the Tribulation.

Daniel 7:25
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I do not believe the Tribulation will be until the Antichrist sits in the Temple !
Most people are hoarding for the Tribulation, What do you do when the Antichrist controls the whole world!

I always marvel how I got through from one year to another

"And they OVERCAME him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony and they did not love their lives to the death." (Rev 12:11)

Unlike tribulation in general, as the church by definition is a tribulation people, the ‘great’ tribulation is much more particularly the great transition between this age and the age to come. This is why the great tribulation is compared to a final travail unto the birth of the new age of covenant promise. Also called the time of Jacob’s trouble and ‘Zion’s travail’, the unequaled tribulation ends with the birth of Israel and the translation of the church. This is very significant, because this convergence is not only because Jesus returns at this time, but because of what God has accomplished in these two, elect entities.

In the case of Israel, the beleaguered remnant according to the election of grace has been brought finally, and fully to "the end of their power” (Deut 32:36; Dan 12:7) in preparation to look upon Him whom they pierced when He comes in the clouds (Zech 12:10; Mt 23:39; 24:30; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:26; Rev 1:7). In the case of the church, a process of revelation and experience of divine power in the furnace of affliction has brought the corporate body of Christ to its promised eschatological perfection (Dan 11:32-33, 35; 12:3, 10; Jn 17:23; Eph 4:13; Heb 4:9; 1Jn 4:18; Rev 12:11; 19:7).

This twin event of birth and resurrection at Jesus’ return begins the liberation of the creation described in Ro 8:20, which we see as realized in two stages, pre and post millennial (Isa 24:22; Ro 8:20; Rev 20). All of this means the end of the age is not only waiting on the completion of His purpose to bring Israel back to Him, not only His intention to fully reveal the mystery of iniquity, but His intention to perfect His corporate servant, the church, in a final demonstration before principalities and powers. I call this the ‘final straightening of the church’.

The tribulation, with its clearly marked certainty of the time, and abundance of unsealed revelation and prophetic fulfillment, will function as a kind of birthing canal, emptying not only Israel but the church of their power. This is why I believe we should see the enormous use that God has invested in the first half of the week.

What God has invested in giving the church the critical preparation of the first half of the week is exactly WHY the church will be straightened and prepared for the great transition that takes place at the beginning of the second half. This time will mark Michael’s clearing the heaven of Satan’s hindering presence (Rev 12:7-14 with Dan 12:1).

This brings Satan down for his ‘short time’ (Rev 12:12), but it also signals the time that the two witnesses receive their power, but not ONLY the two witnesses, but a whole body of ‘maskilim’ who receive strength and power at precisely the same time that Michael is evicting Satan (Rev 12:10-11). These who "love not their lives unto the death” are shown in Daniel’s prophecy to be receiving this power to "be strong and do great exploits and instruct many” at the very time the abomination is being placed that begins the unequaled time of trouble (Dan 11:31-33; 12:1-2, 7, 11). It is no accident that THIS is the very time the two witnesses are receiving their power for final tribulation witness.

I hope we can see this. It cannot be too greatly stressed that this great transition at the mid-point of Daniel’s final week is, not only the time that Satan is being thrust out of heaven and confined to earth for his ‘short time’ of unparalleled destruction; it is the same time the daily sacrifice is being taken away and the abomination of desolation placed in Judea to begin the great tribulation, just 3 1/2 years before "the end” (Dan 9:27; 12:7, 11). We must not miss this connection! Michael’s heavenly victory results, not only in woe for the earth, but in great anointing of power coming upon the church for the final testimony that results in a multitude beyond human ability to count coming out of ‘the tribulation, the great one’ (Rev 7:9, 13-14).

As Jesus saw His appointed hour, those of understanding will see and prophetically apprehend the approaching test for all its unparalleled requirement. As the door of the last seven years is shut firmly behind us, many more of the awakening body of Christ will begin to foresee the evil and dig down deep, greatly hiding herself in Christ, knowing her natural inability to stand in the evil day. This will prepare and fit the church, not only for her final purification and perfection unto translation at Jesus’ return, but her ultimate testimony to the nations, more than at any other time moving Israel to jealousy.

As Jesus said of Peter, I believe it can be prophetically said of the church of the last hour, that another will take her and lead her where she would not have gone, even to a corporate cross of obedience unto death (Rev 12:11). So the purification of the saints of the last and unequaled tribulation is unto a divinely ordained perfection that ends in translation, with the removal of the veil cast over all nations (Isa 25:7-8; Rev 10:7). I am suggesting that the testing of the church, I would call it the great emptying of the church, is not unrelated to the veil that is spread over the nations being removed with the finishing of the mystery of God at Jesus’ return (Isa 25:7; Rev 10:7). There is something about the relation of revelation "at the end of power”, which is to say at the end of human self sufficiency, which must always removed as a necessary prerequisite for resurrection.

(Reggie Kelly - June, 2018)

deltadom
I do not believe the Tribulation will be until the Antichrist sits in the Temple !
Most people are hoarding for the Tribulation, What do you do when the Antichrist controls the whole world!

deltadom
I always marvel how I got through from one year to another

God bless,
Lisa

Short answer is, you don't try to survive it:

Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Dominic, I wouldn't be preoccupied with the Great Tribulation. Think of the Korean saints who have endured oppression from the Japanese from 1910-45 & the North Korean Christians who have suffered torture, imprisonment, & (near) death from the communist Kim dynasty from 1948 to this day. To them surviving a seven year Tribulation would be a joy compared to a lifetime of privation & the harshest treatment which is unending until premature death or old age. We really need to pray for them regularly.

I think this is good advice. If I have an close and intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ, if I am accustomed to walking in total reliance on God through His Holy Spirit, if I am consistently trusting Him for everything in my life now, then I have nothing to worry about during any time of persecution or tribulation...even if I must give my very life for Him. His grace is sufficient and His supply is boundless.

/Docs, the article you quoted indicates that God will perfect the church through suffering in the Great Tribulation. However, so many saints have already escaped the Tribulation by dying in millennia prior to that event---therefore these "spirits of just men made perfect" did not & shall not go through that experience---and therefore the rationale of that article is faulty. Those dead in Christ will rise in the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) with nothing lacking./

The article in my opinion does not speak against the church of past generations and their supposed lack of perfection until the church of the last generation is perfected. I assume God brings the church of each generation to a degree of maturity and perfection as fits His purposes. No, the church of past generations did not experience the Great Tribulation but scriptural examination shows who WILL experience the last and unparalleled Tribulation (Daniel 21:1, Matt 24:21, Rev 7:14). That is the generation and part of the church that the article mainly speaks to.

"As Jesus saw His appointed hour, those of understanding (a prophetically literate and understanding church) will see and prophetically apprehend the approaching test for all its unparalleled requirement. As the door of the last seven years is shut firmly behind us, many more of the awakening body of Christ will begin to foresee the evil and dig down deep, GREATLY HIDING HERSELF IN CHRIST (emphasis docs), knowing her natural inability to stand in the evil day. This will prepare and fit the church, not only for her final purification and perfection unto translation at Jesus’ return, but her ultimate testimony to the nations, more than at any other time moving Israel to jealousy. "

"In the case of the church, a process of revelation and experience of divine power in the furnace of affliction has brought the corporate body of Christ to its promised eschatological perfection (Dan 11:32-33, 35; 12:3, 10; Jn 17:23; Eph 4:13; Heb 4:9; 1Jn 4:18; Rev 12:11; 19:7).”

In many cases the church has relegated clear and precise scriptural statements of "the” great and final tribulation to something of a general statement covering all of church history instead of a time of unequaled testing to occur at the end of the age. None of this in any way denies the suffering and perfection of past church generations which should be a source of sober reverence for us all. I'm just wagering that scriptural portrayals of never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age means never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age. Through this the church of the final of the final days will mainly be stripped of its still dormant tendency to depend on its own self strength which is nothing more than reliance on the flesh. When it passes through this unavoidable and necessary affliction and death then the glory of the Lord will rise upon in true resurrection life it as it has been straitened and fitted for its eschatological destiny.

//I’m just wagering that scriptural portrayals of never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age means never before seen or experienced tribulation at the end of the age.//

How will a person know when this is occurring? In other words how would a person know there is not something far worse coming, perhaps many many years in the future?

And how can it be applied blanketly to all Christians when Christians in some countries have been subjected to great persecution, torture and death for many years? What tribulation is greater than torture and brutalizations of loved ones and family members?

It was Jesus Himself who gave us the key to understanding the time of the approaching end of the age by referring us specifically to the writings of the prophet Daniel. It was Christ who encouraged us to reference these writings.

15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (Daniel 8:13;9:27;11:29;12:11) standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 For then (after the abomination of desolation takes place) there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS HAS NOT OCCURRED since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Jesus is quoting almost verbatim from the writings of Daniel in Daniel 12:1 where Daniel prophesies a TIME OF DISTRESS SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION.

Daniel 12:2 is a passage that most commentators agree is the most clear passage in the entire Old Testament that refers to the resurrection of the dead. So the unequaled time of distress Daniel describes in Daniel 12:1 is followed in the very next verse by a description of the resurrection of the dead. So the time of distress unequaled is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection which is at the end of the age.

Many Jewish people have referred to this time as the "footsteps of the Messiah." Meaning they believe the coming of the Jewish Messiah will be preceded by a time of trouble of never before seen for its scope and intensity yet out of which Israel will be saved and delivered. This is the context which many in today's church have lost sight of because of attempting to "reinterpret" the plain meaning of these eschatological scriptures.

The key, which Jesus Himself directed us to for clarity, is found in Matthew 24:15. When this occurs (when you "see") then the Great Tribulation surpassing all others will begin. Jesus gave us a unmistakable and very clear clue as to what to look for. He gave His church the key to know and understand these times that are to come. "Behold, I have told you all things in advance."

"Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
Matthew 24:15-17

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
Luke 21:20-21
______________________

Now we have to do a little algebra.

In algebra, if a=b and b=c, then a=c.

In Matthew the "abomination of desolation” (a) is what signals it’s time to take flight (b).

In Luke, "Jerusalem surrounded by armies” (c) is the signal to take flight (b)

Therefore, a=c. In other words, Jerusalem surrounded by the pagan gentile Roman army IS the abomination of desolation.

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you are interested.

/"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D./

Are there Jews in Judea today?

I believe Christ in His speaking to those of that generation was following the almost classic mode in which many of the prophets spoke. Meaning, what the prophet spoke would come to pass in the immediate life of the prophet or soon thereafter only to later be completely and exhaustively fulfilled in the distant eschatological future. It's termed by scholars and theologians as near/far fulfillment. Such luminaries as John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and others endorsed this view of near/far fulfillment or sensus pleior as it is sometimes referred to. So Jesus, in the classic mode of prophetic utterance employed by many of the prophets, could have been speaking to his generation while speaking also into a generation the eschatological future. Certainly there are Jews in Judea today that run the high risk of eventually being surrounded by hostile Gentile armies. Then the prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse will have reached a exhaustive fulfillment in the eschatological future.

/Some Bible scholars think the (earthly) church is no longer referred to after chapter 4 of Revelation, that the remaining chapters are about the Jews on earth during the tribulation, and whether they come to know their Messiah, or not./

I don't deny that but it can also be pointed out that many scholars don't believe that. Also, many average lay people who promote the view of a pre-trib rapture don't realize that this view as promoted by its more prominent and famous adherents also promote the view that Jews or anyone saved during the tribulation are not part of the church. I constantly wonder how anyone saved during the tribulation by faith in Christ and His cleansing blood are not part of the church. This view, widely promoted and accepted, that tribulation saints are not to be part of the church, was never heard of in the slightest form before the 1830s.

If we all are to be raptured and changed and put on immortality at the last trumptet (I Cor 15:51-52) how can there be a last trumpet at a pre-trib rapture when the church is raptured and puts on immortality and then seven years or so later there be another last trumpet when those who perished during the tribulation are raised and raptured and put on immortality? How many "last" trumpets can there be? Does last according to Paul really mean last? The last trumpet I see anywhere is referred to in Matt 24:31 at the second coming of Jesus. How could there have been a last trumpet seven years before at a pre-trib rapture when there was still another trumpet to occur seven years later? The last trumpet of Matthew 24:31 occurs AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days as seen in Matthew 24:29. So I maintain that the entire church of the ages, living and dead, will be raised and raptured and put on immortality at the last trumpet that occurs AFTER the tribulation of those days and at the second coming of Christ. None of this was even a matter of debate before the very late arrival of pre-tribulationism that began as recently in church history as the 1830s.

/Many of the preachers featured on this site (B. H. Clendennen, David Wilkerson, Leonard Ravenhill, etc.) held to a pre-trib view of the Rapture, whereas others (Zac Poonen) hold to a post-trib view./

I admit I do not know what many of these men believe but I would be of a post-trib view as Zac Poonen is. The timing of the last trumpet (after the tribulation of those days)and what occurs at the last trumpet(all believers living and dead putting on immortality) is in my opinion a great gift of clarity for a church wanting to understand and be properly prepared.

Thank you and blessings.

I think almost all of Rev is talking about the papacy and world systems in general.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Read Chapter 5 as most people stop at Chapter 4

1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

What is the Day of the Lord

Isaiah 13:9-10\t

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
------------------------------------------
A personal opinion & nothing more: we may be quite far off yet from the Tribulation. Where is the USA in Revelation? Outside of Israel, Europe. Africa (Egypt in particular),& Asia, only the isles warrant a brief mention. It may be that the USA has to economically fall & no longer be a superpower, but a Third World Nation before these things take place. China & Japan already purchased 44% of the US national debt. Some think the Great City that the merchants of the earth bewail is NYC or the contiguous United States. Others feel it is "mother Rome" or the Vatican (as the Reformers did). We'll see, if not here, then hereafter.
------
Scripturial evidence please as I wanted to talk about the Great Tribulation, the Pre Trib Rapture is a side question as I do not believe in it and I think it is a red herring

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you are interested.

/"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

Docs, Jesus said that TO Jews ABOUT Jews in Judea. It already happened in 70 A.D./

Are there Jews in Judea today?

I believe Christ in His speaking to those of that generation was following the almost classic mode in which many of the prophets spoke. Meaning, what the prophet spoke would come to pass in the immediate life of the prophet or soon thereafter only to later be completely and exhaustively fulfilled in the distant eschatological future. It's termed by scholars and theologians as near/far fulfillment. Such luminaries as John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and others endorsed this view of near/far fulfillment or sensus pleior as it is sometimes referred to. So Jesus, in the classic mode of prophetic utterance employed by many of the prophets, could have been speaking to his generation while speaking also into a generation the eschatological future. Certainly there are Jews in Judea today that run the high risk of eventually being surrounded by hostile Gentile armies. Then the prophecies of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse will have reached a exhaustive fulfillment in the eschatological future.
---------------------------------------

There are problems with this aswell with the Preterist or the Historist question ! I know it held among the reformed !
I was going to

But that the Church is one, the Holy Spirit declares in the Song of Songs, saying, in the person of Christ, "My dove, my undefiled, is one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her.” Concerning which also He says again, "A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring sealed up, a well of living water.” But if the spouse of Christ, which is the Church, is a garden enclosed; a thing that is closed up cannot lie open to strangers and profane persons. And if it is a fountain sealed, he who, being placed without has no access to the spring, can neither drink thence nor be sealed. And the well also of living water, if it is one and the same within, he who is placed without cannot be quickened and sanctified from that water of which it is only granted to those who are within to make any use, or to drink. Peter also, showing this, set forth that the Church is one, and that only they who are in the Church can be baptized; and said, "In the ark of Noah, few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water; the like figure where-unto even baptism shall save you;” proving and attesting that the one ark of Noah was a type of the one Church. If, then, in that baptism of the world thus expiated and purified, he who was not in the ark of Noah could be saved by water, he who is not in the Church to which alone

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 100026-100035). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

This is from Ireninius stating that the Tribulation is to purify the church ! I hate the view that God would not send his bride through wrath!

I know I am arguing against pre trib rapture! With the preterist and hisorist view , How do you deal with the fact that when jesus returns he will destroy the antichrist and the antichrist is around during the time of the Tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I class myself as a Historic Premillenist and Post Trib

The reason I brought this subject up, is we are so used to money, how are we going to survive when we cant buy anything, persecution is widespread around the world?
How many christian ministries ask for Donations for ministry what happens when that does not happen and you cant get sermons on line !
When you cannot eat or drink or put through torture!

The distinction to be made between the righteous and the wicked. The future apostasy in the time of Antichrist, and the end of the world 1. Inasmuch, then, as in this world (aioni) some persons betake themselves to the light, and by faith unite themselves with God, but others shun the light, and separate themselves from God, the Word of God comes preparing a fit habitation for both. For those indeed who are in the light, that they may derive enjoyment from it, and from the good things contained in it; but for those in darkness, that they may partake in its calamities. And on this account He says, that those upon the right hand are called into the kingdom of heaven, but that those on the left He will send into eternal fire for they have deprived themselves of all good. 2. And for this reason the apostle says: "Because they received not the love of God, that they might be saved, therefore God shall also send them the operation of error, that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but consented to unrighteousness.” For when he (Antichrist) is come, and of his own accord concentrates in his own person the apostasy, and accomplishes whatever he shall do according to his own will and choice, sitting also in the temple of God, so that his dupes may adore him as the Christ; wherefore also shall he deservedly "be cast into the lake of fire:” [this will happen according to divine appointment], God by His prescience foreseeing all this, and at the proper time sending such a man, "that they may believe a lie, that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but consented to unrighteousness;” whose coming John has thus described in the Apocalypse: "And the beast which I had seen was like unto a leopard, and his feet as of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon conferred his own power upon him, and his throne, and great might. And one of his heads was as it were slain unto death; and his deadly wound was healed, and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon because he gave power to the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto this beast, and who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things, and blasphemy and power was given to him during forty and two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation. And all who dwell upon the earth worshipped him, [every one] whose name was not written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any one have ears, let him hear. If any one shall lead into captivity, he shall go into captivity. If any shall slay with the sword, he must be slain with the sword. Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.” After this he likewise describes his armour-bearer, whom he also terms a false prophet: "He spake as a dragon, and exercised all the power of the first beast in his sight, and caused the earth, and those that dwell therein, to adore the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he shall perform great wonders, so that he can even cause fire to descend from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and he shall lead the inhabitants of the earth astray.” Let no one imagine that he performs these wonders by divine power, but by the working of magic. And we must not be surprised if, since the demons and apostate spirits are at his service, he through their means performs wonders, by which he leads the inhabitants of the earth astray. John says further: "And he shall order an image of the beast to be made, and he shall give breath to the image, so that the image shall speak; and he shall cause those to be slain who will not adore it.” He says also: "And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,” that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 18931-18945). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

The Church Fathers. The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection: 3 Series, 37 Volumes, 65 Authors, 1,000 Books, 18,000 Chapters, 16 Million Words (Kindle Locations 18916-18931). Catholic Way Publishing. Kindle Edition.

Try and find these quotes from an actual book as I am actually quoting from them as they selective quote early church fathers without reading the context like with irenaus who I quoted

Why would the early church fathers who are going through persecution ever actually as they do not stray away from it calling it a purifying of the church

You still have not dealt with the passages as in Thessalonians it specifically says when the rapture , resurrection will have which will be the day of the lord in 1 Thessalonians 5 , when it says the day of the lord comes as a thief in the night

To be there is no biblical grounding for the rapture

As you cannot use types or allegory to justify a doctrine.