CalvaryCom - answer to Hunt

Hi bro,

Here is what I believe my answer would be to Bother Hunt on his point number two.

Hunt
2) At the Rapture there is a resurrection of all believers who have died up to that time: "the dead shall be raised incorruptible” (1 Cor:15:52, 53); "the dead in Christ shall rise first...” (1 Thes:4:16).

Docs: I Corinthians 15:51-53 also mentions that this takes place at the LAST TRUMPET. Does Brother Hunt take this into consideration and why omit it?
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Paul says we all shall ALL (all in Christ)be changed at this last trumpet. Since no believer can be changed until the last trumpet sounds how can there be a last trumpet to occur at a pre-trib rapture of the church only to be followed seven years later by another last trumpet in regards to tribulation believers who either survived or lost their lives? Again, does last mean last as recorded in scripture under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

I Thess 4:16 - "...with the trumpet of God.” Which trumpet? The last trumpet or the next to last? Or are there two last trumpets?

Rev 11:15 regards the blowing of the seventh or last trumpet. It is at this time that it is proclaimed, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” I doubt this would be proclaimed during the fever heat of the tribulation when the AC still has sway and the saints are being trodden underfoot.

Plus, this last or seventh trumpet in Revelation speaks that the time has come that God "should reward His servants the prophets and the saints” (11:18). This is resurrection time, when rewards are given, and it comes at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. It is easy to coordinate it with I Cor 15:51-53 and I Thess 4:16. I Cor 15:51-53 and I Thess 4:16 and Matthew 24:31 are the time when rewards will be given. There is no other trumpet after Matthew 24:31 and it clearly comes after the tribulation of those days (24:29).

Matthew 24:31
I Cor 15:52
I Thess 4:16
Rev 11:15
All the same trumpet ”“ the last trumpet.

I just started it a while ago today and thought I would just get a little breathing room and separation form the other comments. Not that they were bad I just thought this might work better.

I'll try and get back with more.

Blessings.

Thank you for your posts and articles. I have been trying to get back to you but have been busy. Yet pretty soon I hope I'll get back to you with some replies and thoughts.

Regarding the earliest ante-Nicene church fathers voicing support for a pre-trib rapture. I've seen the quotes and did a bit of looking into it. Some of these quotes are taken out of context in my opinion and there are a few who seemed to believe in a pre-trib event. But the overwhelming majority of the dearly church fathers were post-trib in their views and it is easily documented. I've been looking thorough them again So, replying to the argument that many say there is no evidence in the early church fathers for a pre-trib rapture the contemporary advocates of the pre-trib view quote a few church fathers here and there to support a pre-trib view but leave out the large majority of early church fathers who did not support this view.

I admit I don't have them before but my recent looking at the early church fathers shows a large majority of them advocating a post-trib view. Are they taken into consideration or just ignored by the pre-trib advocates? I'm not trying to be a smart alec or sarcastic but when investigating and looking into something one must be prepared to accept what the facts are one way or the other. The lists of supposed early pre-trib advocates it seems should also be accompanied by a list of the many early church fathers who were solidly and unmistakably post-trib.

The Early Church

In this section I wish to show evidence of post-tribulationism in the early church. From what we can gather, they expected to see and be persecuted by the antichrist before the Lord came back, and they expected to go through the Tribulation. They also applied passages which speak of the Tribulation to the church while pre-tribulationists would say that these are for the Jews or for the "tribulational saints” who will be on earth during that time.

The DIADCHE (possibly before A.D. 100)

The author of this work substituted "church” for "elect” where Jesus spoke of gathering together his elect AFTER THE TRIBULATION (Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

So let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom [chapter 9].

Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it [chapter 10].[1]

BARNABAS (A.D. 100)

The final stumbling-block approaches . . . [here the author begins to describe the beast, or antichrist]. We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh the sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance [The Epistle of Barnabas, chapter 4].[2]

JUSTIN MARTYR (A.D. 110-165)

The man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth AGAINST US THE CHRISTIANS. . . [Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 110][3]

IRENAEUS (A.D. 120-202)

Tradition says that Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle.

And they [the ten kings] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and PUT THE CHURCH TO FLIGHT. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord [Against Heresies 5.26.1].

But he [John] indicates the number of the name now [the mark of the Beast], that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is [Against Heresies 5.30.4].

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth [Against Heresies 5.35.1].[4]

TERTULLIAN(A.D. 145-220)

He equates Paul’s description of the rapture of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with Daniel’s description of the second coming.

For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord [even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel] and so shall we ever be with the Lord [Against Marcion 3.25].

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may WAGE WAR ON THE CHURCH OF GOD . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Now the privilege of this favor [to be clothed with immortality] awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: [He goes on to quote 1 Thess. 4:15-17, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, chapter 41][5]

HERMAS (A.D. 160)

Happy are ye who ENDURE THE GREAT TRIBULATION that is coming on, and happy they who shall not deny their own life [The Shepherd of Hermas, Vision 2:2].

Now some have seen a pre-tribulation rapture in the following passage:

Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly [Vision 4:2].

However, if we keep reading we see that the way of escape is by protection through the Tribulation:

For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing [Vision 4:3].[6]

However, this is not a doctrinal work but is the record of a vision which Hermas experienced. Here a woman is telling him these things which he is in turn recording. This entire book is riddled with very strange teachings.

HIPPOLYTUS(170-236)

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and PERSECUTE THE CHURCH [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, chapters 60-61].[7]

CYPRIAN (A.D. 200-258)

With the exhortation of His fore-seeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come, He predicted and said that wars, and famines, and earthquakes, and pestilences would arise in each place . . . as the Lord Himself promises, saying, "But when ye see all these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is at hand” [Treatise 7.2].

The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that WE MUST ALL STAND PREPARED FOR THE BATTLE . . . A severer and a fiercer fight is now threatening [Epistle 55:1].[8]

VICTORINUS(third or fourth century)

Victorinus wrote the first known commentary on the book of Revelation. Notice how he expects the church to see these events in his comments on 7:2:

He speaks of Elias the prophet, who is the precursor of the times of Antichrist, for the restoration and establishment of the churches from the great and intolerable persecution [Commentary on the Apocalypse of John 7:2].[9]

AUGUSTINE (354-430)

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, ASSAIL THE CHRCH before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints [The City of God, Chapter 23].[10]

One of the responses might also be why are these early fathers not taken into consideration when the pre-trib view is cited as to have had its advocates in the early church? The vast majority of the early church fathers were post-trib. It's just a simple fact gleamed from their own writings.

The comfort spoken of in I Thess 4:18 is in regards to people worrying and anguishing over the fate of their deceased love ones - "those who sleep in Jesus" - verse 4:14). Paul encourages them to find comfort that those saints now passed and asleep shall rise when the trumpet of God sounds and they rise to meet Christ in the air at the last day (John 6:39,44;11:24) The hope of the early church was the coming again of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. So take comfort - your deceased loved ones will be fine and okay - in this take comfort. Paul is not referring to finding comfort because one will escape the tribulation. If a Christian saint loses his life during the tribulation what reward is he going to lose? How will he suffer loss? A martyr's crown for the sake of Christ is a thing of exceeding precious value to God. Tribulation saints (not seen as part of the church by pre-trib) are portrayed as coming to a point where they love not their own lives unto death. They are not overtly concerned with their own comfort - the only thing they are committed to is to do God's will during that tome no matter what the cost. It's a hard saying but to be still occupied with our own comfort during that time would indicate a still present disposition of holding onto one's life instead of not loving our own life even unto death. I'm not trying to lecture or bemean. Sincerely.

Blessings to you.

/I don't see anyone actively pursuing a martyr's crown in the Bible, but when the situation became so bottlenecked that it was inevitable then the dear saints of God obtained the requisite grace to endure to the death for His name's sake./

I completely agree. Completely. I just am of the opinion that the Bible never instructs the saints of the very last days to look forward to escaping all the things that will come on the earth and to find comfort that they will be able to preserve their lives by escaping it all.

Yes, men have warts and flaws and even when correct on some doctrines may at the same time have other areas of doctrinal belief that are wrong. Along these lines, I don't believe the Berean Call etc. and other contemporary advocates of the pre-trib view are correct in the pre-trib view yet if I am correct, most of them, including the Berean Call believe those who come to faith during the tribulation will not be part of the church and that they will experience salvation without the indwelling Spirit. I read statements by even Hunt saying he believed tribulation saints will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Maybe not Berean Call but some even go so far to say that during the tribulation God will revert back to a salvation such as was seen in the Old Testament. To say and teach that those who come to faith during the tribulation by placing their faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice and being cleansed by His blood (Rev 7:14)will not be part of the church is just too much for me. I don't see it taught anywhere in Scripture. Or among the early church fathers for that matter. And, how can one be regenerated and born again without the indwelling Spirit? No thorough and complete treatise on how this can be so has never been produced. I propose that it is impossible to be regenerated and born again and become a new creature in Christ without the indwelling Spirit. Yet I believe Hunt and the Berean Call and others teach it. I appreciate their love for the Lord and their committment for souls and the work they did but I will never be able to accept these doctrines that have grown up around and are part of the contemporary pre-trib view. I also maintain that many who hold to the pre-trib view are not aware of these errors that accompany this view.

1) Tribulation believers are not part of the church even though they have placed faith in Christ and His atoning blood.

2) Those who come to faith during the tribulation will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The best they will be able to hope for is Christ with them instead of Christ in them.

3) Some of the New Testament scriptures we know are for the New Testament church only and don't apply to and will not be relevant for tribulation saints.

4) During the tribulation God will revert Israel back to a type of Old Testament salvation and the requirements of the law will be re-imposed in some manner.

I know I said it before but I don't believe many who hold to and advocate the pre-trib view are aware of these beliefs that accompany pre-tribulationism. For me, I will never be able to accept these doctrines. They are SERIOUS error in my opinion especially when the people of God are divided into two categories and saying one group of believers will have the Sprit and the other group will not have the Spirit is as close to outright heresy as one can venture into in my opinion. In my opinion it's a preposterous error to advocate and tampering with Calvary by saying Calvary type of salvation will not apply to tribulations saints is equally as preposterous in my opinion. Calvary was a completely and perfect work and the benefits flowing from it (including the indwelling Spirit - Acts 2:38) in my opinion apply to all believers anywhere and at any time. And it is my opinion that any believer of any time or place that has placed their faith in Christ and been cleansed by His atoning blood is part of the Church. Darby was the first one to teach that this is not so and you certainly will not find it taught among any of the church fathers even if they supposedly had a pre-trib view.

So along with not believing in a pre-trib view I am astonished at these doctrines that have grown up around and currently follow it. God bless them, but the Berean Call and many others, from what I have read, are among the leading advocates of some of these teachings. They are not just error in my opinion but SERIOUS ERROR bordering on outright heresy. And as said before, I remain convinced that many average lay people who support the pre-trib view are not aware of these teachings. By way of maintaining correct and orthodox doctrine and preparatory vigilance by the Church much is at stake. Very much!

Yet I ran across a quote by Dave Hunt that stated this very thing - no indwelling of the Spirit during the tribulation. The irony is I can't find it again no matter how hard I try. So I sent a question to the Berean Call homesite and respectfully asked what is the view of the Berean Call ministry on this issue. I also asked in particular what did Dave Hunt believe and what presently does A. T. McMahon believe on this subject. I'll wait for their answer and be glad to share it.