Question Rev 13:8 about the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I have been grappling with this verse for a long time:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Does the part "from the foundation of the world" relate to the Lamb or to those people who are not found in the book of life?

Was the Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world or does it relate to those reprobates that are not found in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

The KJV sounds a bit ambiguous. The ESV and ASV clearly releate it to those reprobates.

It is an awkward sentence structure in the version you quoted because it puts the phrase "lamb slain” in the middle.

Either the names were in the book from the foundation of the world, or the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Neither makes much sense to me but the latter is less objectionable.

It speaks of Christ as being the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

1 To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia

2 elect according to the foreknowledge (before the foundation of the world) of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: (I Peter 1:1-2)

18 knowing you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (I Peter 1:18-20)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory (I Corinthians 2:7)

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God (before the foundation of the world), you have taken and crucified, and put to death (Acts 2:23)

Yes, the Lamb was there and Abraham spoke prophetically about the Lamb that God would provide after God stayed him not to slay Isaac.
But was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

I see 2 problems with this explanation:
No. 1) It would mean that the atonement preceeds the fall of man. Then God must have forseen the rebellion of Satan and sin of Adam even before they were created.

I cannot think that Satan and Adam were predestined to fall right from the beginning because it would somehow imply that God had some authorship in sin.

I believe both Satan and Adam sinned because of their choice and not because of an inescapable predetermination.

1 John 1:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Problem No.2) It puts the crucifixion outside the realm of time.

Matthew 25:34, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3

Study these verses and surrounding. The work of salvation was planned from before the foundations of the world. Jesus' sacrifice was not an afterthought, a reaction by God to man's "unexpected" sin. God created us, knowing full well the price that would have to be paid for redemption.

If the sacrifice was planned before creation, sin must have been taken into account, otherwise redemption would not be neccessary.

I believe that God had foreordained to put everything under Christ right from the beginning, before creation.

Satan was a perfect, beautiful angel before his rebellion. He did not carry the seed of destruction right from the beginning.

We are created in Gods image, God is sovereign and man is created sovereign just as God, to make choices.
Adam definitely had the ability to choose before the fall.
Sin must be the creatures wrong choice, not the creators will or plan.

narrowpath: Great comment: Sin did not enter by God's preordained will. But it did not enter without God's foreknowledge. In other words, Adam's sin was not a surprise to God and the provision had already been mapped out.

[narrowpath: Great comment: Sin did not enter by God's preordained will. But it did not enter without God's foreknowledge. In other words, Adam's sin was not a surprise to God and the provision had already been mapped out.]

Well worded!

//Sin did not enter by God's preordained will. But it did not enter without God's foreknowledge. In other words, Adam's sin was not a surprise to God and the provision had already been mapped out.]//

This is a distinction without a difference. Very easy to say and it sounds good but it is nonsensical.

"This is a distinction without a difference. Very easy to say and it sounds good but it is nonsensical."

Good observation Todd.

I'm glad it was you and not me pointing that out.

You always get these kind of questions and responses when you deny the scripture teaching that God has an election. That election is God's choosing not man. It is God's purposing and willing and revealing that purpose and will by Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

When you believe the scriptures teach election, you believe God's plan was involving Christ from ancient past. You also believe God's design and purpose for Christ the Church and our own individual purposes are all connected to God's original plan in Christ.

Stop worrying about a free-will you never had, or a salvation that was the after thought of mans sin. It's really ok to believe God knows more than you, has a real sovereignty and not a contrived one as claimed by so many. Man is about as sovereign as a rock, he may exist and have purpose but he is no sovereign in his world. Only the wicked alienated mind thinks this way. It's a stain from our atheism of the past where we think we are our own little god, doing, thinking and willing as if we know something.

All our Christian lives our struggle is to vacate the god-post we pretended we had in our enemy-years. Come to God as a human where your life is his, your service and love are his and your plans and future are his.

Don't pattern the biblical God after the nonsense you seen in countless movies, they are false, errant and designed to keep you stupid in regards to God's person. The alienated mind only conceives of an all-knowing God in the most heinous and tyrannical way, that conception fights, resists, contrives doctrines and experiences all to negate who God is and replace him with a more human and a more suitably pliable one that fits our fancy.

The fact that God knew from the outset of Creation who he would save and who he would not is too horrible for the carnal mind...and some of you think of God according to a carnal mind where his decisions to express grace and judgment are all his and you dont get to veto any of it. This strikes fear into the atheism that still resides in you own heart.

I had to come to terms with this myself, the answer was not the arminian free-will escape clause, it was believing that scripture truly means what is says...Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world is the same thing as saying he has blessed the Christian with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places...The one does not occur without the other.

"This is a distinction without a difference. Very easy to say and it sounds good but it is nonsensical."

This logic rebuttal is a non-sequitur itself. God has ordained Marvin to live in this present world, because God willed Marvin's existence God also willed that Marvin as Marvin be revealed for who he is, with that comes sinfulness and sin-action. One does not come without the other. The distinction is that I own the sin I committed, God's will that I live in this world and my own disobedience are at odds with his prescriptive will. Therefore there is a distinction and a difference.

A thousand more examples can be laid out, but my own life is sufficient to show that Adam and Eve being ordained of God to live were a 'package deal' Just as I am, God's purpose for me is wrapped up in Christ, but outside of Christ all I could see is the human-willing and 'human-actions' that follow an alienated and enmity filled heart. Before Adam, Jesus the 2nd person of the Trinity willingly planned his own sacrifice by reason of my own sin in order to bring all the blessings of God's righteousness upon me. All of this decided long before the "earth was void and without form". Our earth was not to reveal tree's flowers, seas and mountains, it was to reveal the Person of God in Christ and to unite with him his creation man and woman.

If it is nonsensical what is the proper way to answer and define the meaning? I realize they have been debating this for centuries but I expect the correct answer from you by tonight. Ha! Seriously, it is a intriguing subject.

"...they have been debating this for centuries..."

If you are content believing that God never intended this to be understood, then you may as well drop it!

If it's been God's intention for it merely to be an "intriguing subject", then you may as well drop it!

But...

/If you are content believing that God never intended this to be understood, then you may as well drop it!

If it's been God's intention for it merely to be an "intriguing subject", then you may as well drop it!/

Then lay it out for us just the way God intends for it be understood.

I raised the topic because I honestly need to know. Today I preached about Ephesians 1: 1-14 as part of a series about the church.

I am in ministry and understand that I a responsible to teach nothing but the truth.

I had a discussion with the other elder in our church and I am willing to change my views by good theological arguments based on scripture.

Was the atonement there before there even was a conceivable need for it to be there ?

If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, then atonement for death and sin, which has not entered creation at the beginning must have already been accounted for.

My objection was that God cannot be the author of sin and death, inasmuch as he did not create darkness.

That would mean that God must have created satan and man with the ability to make a choice for or against him - free will.
Otherwise God would be the author of evil which is not possible.
Satan and Adam were created sinless. Satan sinned wilfuly, Adam by sinned by permitting satans deception that corrupted his will against Gods command.

Knowing that the exercise of free will would end up in sin, God arranged the atonement - the Lamb slain - from the beginning of the world.

That would make more sense to me.

This way God can have praise to his glory not by creating programmed robots but by redeemed humans who exercised their free will to repent and believe and receive the foreordained salvation in Christ.

The opening poster answered his own dilemma in his very next post. But he doesn't like his own conclusions, so he rather calls them problems.

Verses such as this (Rev. 13:8) trouble us, causing us to attempt to protect God's character. God does not need our protection. He speaks plainly in many places as to what he alone does.

4 chapters later in the same book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ, in chapter 17:17 it is written very plainly. He does not hide from us what He Himself does, fearing what the creature may think of Him.

Many christians are afraid of facing up to the questions of men like Richard Dawkins. God doesn't need us to defend His character. We men have the tendency of ascending upon the throne and calling upon God to give an account to us of His actions. When it's us who must give an account to Him Who sits upon the Throne.

God is God. Think about it! All that entails.

NP:

The difficulty is, and always has been, whether perfect foreknowledge is consistent with free will.

Certain folks are consistent by admitting it is not and therefore deny the free will of mankind, although they may try to say they don’t.

Other people who think about such things and who believe man is truly free must struggle with the idea of perfect foreknowledge. Because if God has perfect foreknowledge that I am going to eat a soft shell crab sandwich for lunch tomorrow, guess what I am going to have?

Todd:

God did not determine that you will eat the soft shell crab sandwich tomorrow. You will eat it out your own free choice and free will. But the soft-shell crab that you will eat will be contaminated and you will eat it and die. You do not know that. But God who is all knowing and who knows the end from the beginning knows. The problem is that even if God were to warn you about this you would be too hard-hearted and obstinate to listen to Him and believe Him. So God, the Great Physician and the God of all Goodness and unfathomable Love, prepares the medicine to save you so that you will live and not die. You see, God has no pleasure in your death. He will pluck this silly sheep out of the jaws of death, carry it on His shoulder, and bring it back home to glory.

Eph. 2:1-7 ”“
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:18-20

knowing, as you do, that it was not with a ransom of perishable wealth, such as silver or gold, that you were set free from your frivolous habits of life which had been handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ””as of an unblemished and spotless lamb. He was pre-destined indeed to this work, even before the creation of the world, but has been plainly manifested in these last days for your sake. - WNT

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain course of life received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifested in these last times for you. - Webster

Before the foundation of the world - That is, from eternity. It was before man was formed; before the earth was made; before any of the material universe was brought into being; before the angels were created. Barnes

before the foundation of the world; for all God's decrees and appointments, relating either to Christ, or his people, are eternal; no new thoughts, counsels, and resolutions, are taken up by him in time. The affair of redemption by Christ is no new thing; the scheme of it was drawn in eternity; the persons to be redeemed were fixed on; the Redeemer was appointed in the council and covenant of peace; and even the very Gospel which proclaims it was ordained before the world, for our glory. A Saviour was provided before sin was committed, and the method of man's recovery was settled before his ruin took place; and which was done without any regard to the works and merits of men, but is wholly owing to the free and sovereign grace of God, and to his everlasting love, both to the Redeemer and the redeemed. Gill

Before the foundation of the world - if we take it here in its common signification, the creation of universal nature, then it shows that God, foreseeing the fall and ruin of man, appointed the remedy that was to cure the disease. Adam Clark

Pulpit Commentary Verse 20. - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world; rather, as in the Revised Version, who was foreknown indeed; literally, who hath been fore known. But the foreknowledge of God implies the exercise of his will, therefore the "foreordained" of the Authorized Version, though not here an exact translation, is true in doctrine. St. Peter had asserted the same great truth in his sermon on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:23; comp. also Acts 3:18 and Acts 4:28). He had heard the words, "before the foundation of the world," again and again from the lips of Christ; he may possibly have read them in the Epistle to the Ephesians (Ephesians 1:4). The incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ were not the result of a change of purpose to meet unforeseen circumstances; they were foreseen and foreordained in the eternal counsels of God. Those counsels are wholly above the range of our understanding; we cannot see through the veil of mystery which surrounds them; we cannot fathom the awful necessities which they imply. But was manifest in these last times for you; rather, as in the Revised Version, with the best manuscripts, was manifested at the end of the times for your sake.

Vs 20. God's eternal foreordination of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, and completion of it in these last times for us, are an additional obligation on us to our maintaining a holy walk, considering how great things have been thus done for us. Peter's language in the history corresponds with this here: an undesigned coincidence and mark of genuineness. Redemption was no afterthought, or remedy of an unforeseen evil, devised at the time of its arising. God's foreordaining of the Redeemer refutes the slander that, on the Christian theory, there is a period of four thousand years of nothing but an incensed God. God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). - JFB