What are the main differences between the two?
Regarding the indwelling of the Spirit for tribulation believers - I know traditional dispensationalism believes they will not be indwelt by the Spirit during the tribulation. Does anyone know what the view of progressive dispensationalism is on this matter? Is there any recommended place where I could find good info?
Thank you.
David, this is pretty straight forward concerning your request. It is not to long and pretty much takes into consideration all the different parts of Dispensationalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalist_theology
There is a short book by Timothy S. Morton that is worth reading which puts the covenants in their proper dispensation period. It is online and be read at;
www.biblebelievers.com/Dispen1a.htm#Chapter I
In Christ: Phillip
From the book by Morton:
"The New Covenant is called "new" because unlike the previous covenants it has not yet been made. It was promised in Jer. 31:31-37 and confirmed again in Heb. 8:7-13, but it has not yet been officially given to the nation of Israel. Again, after the Jews repent and receive Christ as their Messiah, God will formally establish this unconditional covenant with them. This is the "new testament" Jesus was referring to in Matt. 26:28 when He said, "for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Thus this covenant is based on the shed blood and atoning death of Jesus Christ."
"Many today insist this New Covenant doctrinally applies to the present "church age," but this is another wresting of Scripture. By letting the Scriptures speak for themselves one can easily see that the New Covenant only applies doctrinally to "the house of Israel" and "the house of Judah" (Jer. 31:31, Heb. 8:8). It has nothing to do with the born again believer or the present Dispensation of Grace. The main thrust of this "new testament" is not the Church Age, but a future covenant with Israel based on the atoning death of the Jewish "testator," Jesus Christ. Of course, the salvation Christ bought with His blood is available to all today, Jew or Gentile, but as found in Jeremiah and Hebrews the New Covenant will apply only to Israel. The specifics of this covenant are (as found in Jeremiah 31):"
Docs: If this new testament (new covenant-Matt 26:27) has nothing to do with the born again believer of this present Dispensation of Grace then what covenant are born again believers today participating in for their salvation?
Quoting,
"Thus this covenant is based on the shed blood and atoning death of Jesus Christ."
1) Docs: I have always believed I was born again because of the shed blood and atoning death of Jesus Christ. How then can this "new testament" have nothing to do with the born again believer today or in this dispensation? It's anS honest of a question I have ever asked.
Quoting,
"The Dispensation of the Law lasted from the exodus out of Egypt until the cross (around 1500 years),...
The Tribulation:
"Dispensationally, the Tribulation period is basically the Dispensation of the Law with a few added features. Since the Church will have left in the rapture, the parenthetical Dispensation of Grace will be gone along with the doctrines unique to it. Thus the nation of Israel will again be the main object of God's concern. There will be a temple in the Tribulation, sacrifices will be offered, and salvation will again have a Jewish ring to it. More on this in the following chapters."
2) Docs: If the Dispensation of the Law ended at the cross why would God, after Christ and the atonement, revert back to a system or dispensation of law? How will multitudes be saved during the tribulation if they are under a system of law and not grace? By the keeping of the law no man is justified (Gal 2:16). If those in the tribulation have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev 7:14) then where does a dispensation of law figure in?
I admit I always get a bit confused over this issue as it is presented from the dispensational viewpoint. As well as the dispensational view that those saved during the tribulation (by law or by grace?) will not have the indwelling of the Spirit.
From the book:
Salvation in the Tribulation
"When the rapture occurs and Christ takes His Church into Heaven with Him, things will never be the same on earth again. When all those in Christ are raised up to meet their Savior in the air, a whole dispensational system will go up with them. Eternal salvation as we know it today (by grace through faith apart from works) will no longer be valid because the Holy Spirit will no longer regenerate and seal those who become saved after the "trump" (1 Thes. 4:16). Believers in the future will not have a new nature, be placed in Christ, or have Christ permanently indwelling them. Simply put, the means of salvation as we know it today will no longer exist. The difference in the dispensations will make it impossible for a believer to be born again, placed into Christ's body, or keep eternal life by faith alone. Salvation will be very similar to the way it was in the Old Testament."
- Eternal salvation as we know it today (by grace through faith apart from works) WILL NO LONGER BE VALID
- THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NO LONGER REGENERATE AND SEAL those who become saved after the "trump" (1 Thes. 4:16).
- Believers in the future WILL NOT HAVE A NEW NATURE, BE PLACED IN CHRIST, OR HAVE CHRIST PERMANENTLY INDWELLING THEM.
- Simply put, the means of salvation as we know it today will no longer exist.
- The difference in the dispensations WILL MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR A BELIEVER TO BE BORN AGAIN, PLACED INTO CHRIST'S BODY, OR KEEP ETERNAL LIFE BY FAITH ALONE.
- Salvation will be very similar to the way it was in the Old Testament.
Docs: I'm just quoting from the book by Morton. There are some very serious doctrines espoused here.
3) Where was this taught by any of the early church fathers or those who came later? I'm admittedly baffled to the point of perplexity trying to understand it or see how it is scripturally possible. That's my view though bro. Feel free to answer if you are inclined to do so. I assume Morton is writing of traditional dispensationalism. I'm still looking into possible differences in beliefs regarding these areas in progressive dispensationalism.
Thank you.
Progressive Dispensationalism https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00B85AI6C/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_dtDzBb11A1D24
Thank you. I've been looking at some of these books lately trying to decide which ones to possibly purchase.
Gracias!
"The Tribulation will be a very difficult time for one to try and live for God. Christ declared in Matthew 24 this period will contain terror, horror, and death on a scale the world has not yet seen. One reading of the book of Revelation with all the catastrophes, judgments, and sorrows found in it should awaken any believing reader to the shear horror many will endure during this period. As we have repeatedly said, during this seven year period faith alone will not be enough to permanently secure ones eternal salvation. Faith will likely be the means of the believer initially being saved, but his faith must motivate the proper works for him to keep his salvation, and he must be faithful in keeping them to "endure to the end." Remember how James said, "Faith without works is dead," and one shows his faith by working? In the Tribulation one must show his faith and work to overcome evil and clinging to good or else he won't make it through saved (Rev. 3:5). There are around 200 verses in the New Testament that indicate someone can lose his salvation””they must fit somewhere””and the Tribulation is the place. Remember Matthew chapters 24 and 25, and Hebrews chapters 3, 6, and 10? The Tribulation is where they all doctrinally apply: the "time of Jacob's trouble" (not the Church's trouble). Again, someone in the Bible can lose his salvation, but it is not a born again Christian."
"During the Tribulation salvation will be identical to salvation under the law as far as what happens to and inside a believer is concerned. Since there is no longer a new birth available, nothing will happen inside the believer to secure his salvation. Though he won't be saved on credit as those in the Old Testament were (because Christ's atonement has since been made), he will still be saved on a trial basis like they were. Believing on Christ will just be the first step in his process of salvation, for along with believing he must "keep the commandments of God" (Rev. 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, CHECK THESE!). Since this is, again, a Jewish dispensation, the commandments must be the Ten Commandments and other commandments given under the law. Gentiles will likely not be obligated to keep the distinctly Jewish commandments, but they must keep the moral commandments as much as they know them even if their conscience is their only guide."
(From "The Difference is in the Dispensations" - by Timothy Morton)
What do you say is so?
I was going to change my post because, "Please say it ain't so!" seemed to have a little barb in its tone. So I apologize for that.
Yet admittedly, along the following lines I am perplexed about what this brother advocates.
Quoting,
"As we have repeatedly said, during this seven year period faith alone will not be enough to permanently secure ones eternal salvation."
Docs: In my opinion this changes the entire nature of the gospel. To say during the tribulation one will be required to be saved by faith AND WORKS goes beyond just a few points of disagreement etc. This mitigates against and strikes at the very heart and nature of the saving gospel after Christ has been crucified and risen. By works no man can be justified.
Quoting,
"During the Tribulation salvation will be identical to salvation under the law as far as what happens to and inside a believer is concerned. Since there is no longer a new birth available, nothing will happen inside the believer to secure his salvation. Though he won't be saved on credit as those in the Old Testament were (because Christ's atonement has since been made), he will still be saved on a trial basis like they were."
Docs: I believe since Christ has died and rose and poured out the Spirit that it is impossible to be truly saved without inheriting a new nature.
38 If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, out of His heart will flow rivers of living water.
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, WHOM THOSE BELIEVING IN HIM WOULD RECEIVE; for the Holy Spirit was not yet give, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:38-39)
In my opinion, it is as impossible to undo this factual statement regarding the Holy Spirit being given to those who believe as it is to undo the basis upon which it is based - the glorification and ascension of Christ to the right hand of God - "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now we and hear." (Acts 2:33)
The glorification and ascension of Christ to the right hand of God cannot be undone and is the basis upon which the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe in Him as they will believe on Him during the tribulation. We can see that the first mention of the Holy Spirit being poured out was made in reference to Him being poured out on the repentful eschatological remnant of Israel at the post tribulational Day of the Lord (Isa 32:15; 59:21; Ezek 11:19; 36:26-27; 37:14; 39:29; Joel 2:29-32; Zech 12:10-13:1). Then a mystery was revealed in Ephesians 3:6 that the Holy Spirit was already being poured out and that Gentiles were now included before the Day of the Lord. With the glorification of Jesus to the right hand of God and His subsequent pouring out of "the promise of the Father" how can it be advocated that tribulation saints will suffer a reversion and receive something inferior than what was first promised to Israel and given at Pentecost? And how can Christ be unglorified which is the basis of the pouring out of the Spirit to all who believe. Dispensations may supposedly change but how can the glorification of Jesus and His position at the right hand of God change?
Dispensationalism often refers to the supposed fact that many early church fathers believed in a pre-trib rapture. I do not believe this is entirely accurate since many more church fathers can be shown to not have believed this. Yet even if it were so where did the early church fathers teach:
- Tribulation saints who believe will not be able to be born again and receive a new nature.
- Tribulation saints will not be able be sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
- Tribulation saints who truly believe will still not become part of Christ's body.
- It will be impossible for tribulation saints to be saved by faith alone.
Early church fathers and those who came after may have taught many things regarding faith and salvation and a time of tribulation at the end of the age. But never that above. John Nelson Darby and his followers were the first to ever propose this as far as I can ascertain. If one can find it taught anywhere before the 1830s I would indeed be glad to take a look. Personally, I could be wrong, but I'm still not sure that all who believe in a pre-trib rapture are aware that these beliefs accompany the popular view.
Blessings to you bro. Comments welcome.
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