Torben Søndergaard

Hi brother,

Even though I am carefull and not agreeing with everything that comes from Torben, I have some thoughts about your reply.

1) You said this:
"The Apostles never asked people if they wanted healings to show them that God loves them, this is a new way and idea. "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed” (Matt 6:14)."

I'm not sure about this. Jesus did a lot of things and those were called signs. I see the apostles doing a lot of healings and deliverances and that was the Spirit testifying about the message. I agree that it should all be about proclaiming Jesus (live, suffering, death, resurrection, glorifying and returning)! But I see in the new testament that signs and wonders are going alongside that. Both are showing that Christ is alive.

And I have heared one of the 'leaders' say that they don't believe we should say so easy to sinners that Jesus loves them. So I'm not sure if they heal to show the love of Jesus. At least not always.

2) You said:
"Torben speaks in his videos of God revealing the truth in these last days but then that excludes most of Church history of missing this, this is the teaching of restorationism, that the truth and gospel was lost after the death of the apostles or at the time of constaine (AD 300) and now God is looking to restore the gospel back to the Church before the coming of the Lord. This is the belief and idea that most if not all cult groups have rested on to be able to promote any new ideas as the actual biblical apostolic truth being restored. or the Book of Acts for today."

The first lesson of the pioneerschool he explains that the Lord is restoring many thinks for the last 500 years. In the middle ages most of the gospel and new testament was diverted by the roman catholic church, but then there came a movement of the reformers, then the baptists, then the holinessmovement, then the pentecostles, etc. So the last 500 years we see moves in which God bring certain doctrines to life. I don't see the problem in that.

2) You said:

"The Church historically baptised people in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, baptising in "Jesus" only is a new occourance in the modern (Oneness) movement. where the trinity is also done away with."

a. it depends what you mean with historically... I have read that the first 100/200 years people baptised in the name of Christ.

b. Like I said before, Torben doesn't believe in "oneness". But he believes that you should repent towards God the Father, you should be baptised into Christ (the Son) and you should receive (or be baptised in) the Holy Spirit.

3) You said

"The Last Reformation movement has no official doctrinal statement other than the book of Acts. Which is abit worrysome as all main biblical doctrines that the Church has agreed on for 2000 years could be up in the air."

I agree with you here. We should have the entire scripture as our guideline. But I don't believe that we should believe something 'because the church has agreed for more then 1000 years'. If Luther did it, we would still be in the mess that was there when he lived. So let's go for sola scripture!

4) You said

"They are careful not to call themselves a "church,” as they see traditional church structure and practice to be extra-biblical. This is another problem where there is a dismisal of the entire strcuture of the church as historically it has been followed. The irony is that Torben will speak in many churches in denominations with buildings."

What I have seen is this: he doesn't have problems with fellowships of believers (even though they are bigger). He has problems with institution and traditions that kill effectivess and discipelship. When I read the book you wrote with some other believers (Gospel Fellowships) I was reading the same. We are the body of Christ, not a building. We should not focus so much on a building, but on being one body ourselves. That's what they share, and what I agree on.

But you are right that you must be carefull not to attack 'the church, the believers'. Torben is not trying to destory the church but to build it up and free it from institution/corrupt systems.

5) You said:

The teaching on demand of reception of gift of tongues. The Bible is clear that not all believers would have the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30).

100% agreeing, but you know that a lot of preachers on sermonindex are not agreeing with you? If this is such a big thing, why are they on sermonindex?

6) You said a quote at the last part things about that he is attacking the church (destroying it) and that he is speaking extremely judgmental. I would be very carefull with that language, especialy when you didn't speak with him yourself.

I have listened to much what he has taught, and I am disagreeing with you that he is trying to destroy the church. Also you are giving a lot of "church history", but I would be carefull with that. Church history has a lot of flaws I think.

This being said, I am not someone who is part of "the last reformation" movement because I'm not agreeing with some things and because I too have concerns. But I don't believe we should attack eachother when we didn't try to understand eachother.

I would love that we could talk with Torben, talk about these matters, pray for him, accept what is right and correct what is wrong and then to continue serving the Lord.

Written in love for Christ, for you and for the body of Christ!

Brother Wijnand:

That was really well said and I appreciate a better display of defense of a man that we don't know very well.

I think cautionaries are good, (I also think jumping to conclusions where false accusations or finger-pointing comes out because he isn't fitting inside 'boxes' Christians make) should be dismissed.

He may be a loon for all I know, but if he is, he will be one on biblical criteria not denominational/creedal boundary lines.

Aside from Torben...

One should ask What is a real man of God? Does he practice 'non-miracle' so that he will not be thought of as a charlatan?
does he relegate any miraculous to the apostolic age and preach all logic, word, governments, churches, leaders and laity?
does he consider anyone that might be 'gifted' as needing an abundance of cautionaries regarding pride, error, ego and adding to scripture?
does he also preach to himself and his peers the same cautionaries in regards to their books, degrees, high attainments, high positions, approvals of men, applause of men?
Is a real man of God only found among the 'approved men' in various denominations and ministries?
Is a real man of God going to warn of stifling institutionalism, or is he going to promote it and denounce non-conformists?

I say none of this as a defense to Torben, I am saying this because when these ideas are fuzzy and what a man of God is has no criteria but what your own denomination says he is, the inference is, God has your denomination/ministry as the final and totality of what it is to be a man of God.

Are you prepared to own that your denomination/ministry has the fullness of what it means to be a man of God? If you are, then how are you different from Torben?

Thank you Wijnand for that defence. You have well communicated what was on my heart although I too hardly know this brother.

Also thank you Marvin for well written definition of what a man of God isn't.

Wijnand, you said you don't agree on everything with Torben and have some concerns.
Would you please relate them here? Also, I guess the major point with me would be if he denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that true? It seems highly unlikely that he believes that and yet it's an area that's creating some confusion.. If you have communications with him could you ask him personally?

When I created the other thread, "Warning To Churches 2018 - Don’t jump on the Catholic, Protestant and one world religion train," I had no idea of the ruckus this would cause!!

I had never heard of Torben till that day and then watched that video that I believe is right on the mark. I bet if Paul Washer made that same video word for word, everyone would be all over it, going "what an anointed right on-time video, that guy is a true man of God!"

Thank you for locking my "old thread" that was actually only 4 days old because now, wanting to see what all the ruckus is, I have bought his book, The Last Reformation.

God bless us all,
Lisa

Lisa: when youre done give us a review, the good bad and ugly.

Lisa: Paul Washer polarized people very quickly, many including myself thinks he is God sent to our nation.

"Wijnand, you said you don't agree on everything with Torben and have some concerns. Would you please relate them here?"

- Sometimes they are to much focused on "doing" and to little on seeing what Christ did. That doesn't mean that they don't talk about what Christ did.. they do. For example they talk about forgivess through Christ, victory over sin, the return of Christ, etc. But they should be focused more about that. But other fellowships and groups I know focus so much on what we have in Christ that they forget about the "doing". I would love to have more of a balance in that.
- They believe that everyone can speak in languages (they call it tongues). I don't believe that. But because they believe that, they are strongly focused on people receiving it, and when people start shouting something that isn't English ... then they call it tongues. I would be more careful and are more on the side of David Pawson. When somebody receives the (fullness of the) Holy Spirit, then something will go out of his mouth, but it doesn't have to be 'tongues', but could be praise or prophesying, etc.
- They are afraid of leadership, because of the danger of becoming an institute. I believe healthy leadership (and submission) is a central part of the body of Christ (the church).
- I think they don't teach people enough about the gospel and so what Christ did for them. Everybody is running, but who is just fellowshipping with Christ?
- When they pray for people to receive the Spirit they let them close there eyes, they speak in a certain way... that looks like a trick or psycologily things. I believe that you don't see that in the bible.

But to bring balance in this reply, the positive sides:
- They are equiping people to go out, to share the gospel, to pray for people (sick/oppressed), to baptise them, to pray for the fullness of the Holy Spirit.
- They are against the word of faith movement.
- They are against the weird manifestations (shaking, drunkeness in the 'spirit', etc.).
- They learning people to pray, to fast, to study the bible themselves.
- They are prepering people for suffering for the sake of Christ.
- They are equiping people to form fellowships.
- They are focussed on discipleship.
- They are focussed on the lost.

For myself: I believe it's a move of God, but I am worried about some things that are happening. I pray that the Lord will guide them to maturity and healthyness.

"Also, I guess the major point with me would be if he denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Is that true?"

Of course not. :-)

You cannot just rely on checking his theology, but have to check their fruit, too.

Balaam had correct theology but still lead the Israelites astray.

It rings alarm bells with me that he has an issue with the church. Baptized believers must be joined to churches, as they did in the early church.

He over-emphasizes the book of Acts. The Holy Spirit moved like a fire, but it lead to the foundation of the church.
For me this movement looks more like a wildfire.

All genuine moves of God will always strengthen or build churches under the headship of Christ and under the care of elders and deacons connected with joints and ligaments of of service.

Is it only about Torben Sondergaard or does he work in fellowship with other workers?

Also, naming themself "The Last Reformation" is no insignificant claim.

Looks like a lot of hype. Let's wait and see...

BTW, I am not too comfortable with quoting www.gotquestions.org

Thank you much Wijnand for that thorough reply.
These concerns don't raise a red flag with me especially considering the movement if you want to call it that still in it's infancy.

Thanks again

Though I am not comfortable with this movement, it shows how the ultra-humanistic public in Europe is starting to persecute Christians. Let us pray for them anyhow.

https://thelastreformation.com/seeking-asylum-in-usa-torben-sondergaard-a-very-emotional-and-special-video/

I have waited many months to share this with you.

This is somehow the hardest and most emotional video I have ever done. But it is also a big relief to finally get this out.

Yes, we are seeking Asylum in America, and I would like to share some of the crazy things that have happened in the last six months.

We have experienced a crazy and organized persecution from many sides ”“ a persecution that ended up with us leaving Denmark with 8 suitcases, in order to not go to jail, or lose our kids. Later, even going through a spiritual battle like never before, ending up in a hospital, thinking I was going to die. But it has also been a time with fasting and a closeness to Christ we have never experienced before… How God has come to us, again and again, when we couldn’t take any more… How a man I didn’t know gave me a lot of money in an airport, and how we saw very strong miracles!

I hope you will see this very personal and emotional video to the end.

I look forward to see what will come out of all of this. All to God’s glory!

Let’s stand together and see a breakthrough like never before.

Blessings!
Torben

The last time this subject came up, I chose to stay out of the conversation. However, I feel the need to speak what I feel the Holy Spirit has spoken to me.

I heard of Torben about 3 years ago, when I was encouraged to listen to what he had to say. Those who suggested this love the Lord dearly and were seeking to follow Christ with all their hearts. However, I could not gain the same enthusiasm for Torben, and wrote my thoughts to them on what I perceived.

Below is what I wrote, and what I still believe after revisiting his videos several times. Since he began, I believe his "marketing" (for lack of a better term) has become better, and his ideas are presented in a more subtle form. However, his beliefs and his methods remain the same.

My thoughts to my friends on Torben:

Here are some of the things that concern me about Torben's "method":

FIRST: he prioritizes healing BEFORE preaching. He teaches that we must go out and just start praying for people's healing and once they receive healing, THEN we tell them that God did it and talk about Jesus. I have a problem with that on several levels. First of all, it relegates the gospel to a secondary position. It makes it seem that the gospel alone- the good news revealed by God to save us from His wrath- is not enough to attract people, to transform them; it makes it seem that the gospel needs "help." I wonder if he believes really in the power of the Word? And what if it isn't God's will to heal that person and they don't receive healing -do they then not get to hear the gospel? Or if we do share the gospel we now have to explain why the healing didn't occur (which we don't know!)

I know that Torben says that he is trying to get back to what the original church looked like, but his method is NOT what the original church practiced. If you read through the book of Acts (which he says is what he is imitating) miracles were always quite secondary to the preaching of Christ and of the Word. Look at Peter in the first portion of Acts, and Paul later on. What does it say about Paul? Does it say that he came into a city and started performing miracles so that people would be attracted to what he had to say? Nowhere does it say that. Quite the contrary: everywhere Paul went he first went into the synagogue to expound on the scriptures, and then to the gentiles also to speak about God's word. Yes, he did (and I hate to say that he did because really it was Christ in him) "perform" some miracles, but that was not the center of his ministry, nor the beginning of anything. I believe that, as in all things, he was led by the Spirit in when to "perform" a miracle, but I would rather say that he allowed himself to be used of God at that moment. It was not a method of evangelism.

SECOND, this is not a very effective evangelizing tool. It says in many places in the gospel that JESUS healed ALL their diseases, yet how many of those people became His disciples? Based on the scriptures, of thousands that received the healing or saw the healing, there were at most 500 brethren when Christ resurrected from the dead, and how many of those were left by the day of Pentecost?

THIRD, what was the purpose of Christ's miracles? Jesus performed miracles we are told so that they may believe Him for the works themselves, even if they did not believe Him. (John 10:38, 14:11). They were a sign that Jesus was the Messiah, and based on the Word, that is what people believed, saying, "this must be the Messiah. How else can he perform all these miracles?" (my paraphrase). The other reason that Christ performed miracles, and it should be the same reason today, is as always and in all things to glorify God. If you read the gospels, it has always amazed me how after Jesus performed a miracle it says that the people "glorified God." What did Jesus do or say that when He was doing His work that immediately brought the eyes of people upward, never to Jesus or other things? However, Jesus does not tell us to "go and do miracles and make disciples." He only says that miracles WILL FOLLOW those who believe (Mark 16:7). Doesn't that imply that it is just a secondary part, that it flows out of our daily life, as Christ leads. Also, not all will perform miracles. Or why else would Paul write in 1 Cor 12:28-30:

"And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?"

The implication is that NO, NOT ALL do miracles, NOT ALL have the gift of healing, NOT ALL speak in tongues.
Notice also the order: FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, and AFTER THAT- miracles, healing, etc. Why does Torben put healing FIRST? Quite concerning again that he is unscriptural.

FOURTH, the emphasis on miracles is highly concerning. Pardon me the comparison, but that is the same thing Benny Hinn does, as do others like him. The claim is that God is in the miracle. I don't agree with that. We all know that there is a time coming when a great deception will come upon the world, such that even the elect might be deceived, if possible. We know that the son of perdition will perform miracles (at least one- where he is healed from a deadly wound). The spiritual forces of darkness are very good at creating counterfeits of God's work, and that includes miracles. To be honest, I used to follow Benny Hinn and even attended a crusade, even though I recognized that some of what he did was not scriptural because I thought: "If he is doing miracles, it is obvious that God is with him." That is a lie. Another spirit may be in that, and one test of whether a man/woman is with God is his adherence to scripture in his ministry. Any practice or theology that does not conform with the Word is not of Him.

In my opinion, Torben is promoting the same type of following that Benny Hinn does. It may be painted in a different motive-to reach the lost- but it is nonetheless a show of the "power" of God first and primarily, and of Christ and His cross and His resurrection second. I say this assuming that he does indeed preach the correct gospel message of repentance, turning from sin, complete surrender to Christ, and picking up your cross; there is no way to know what he really preaches since all of the videos that Torben put up were all about healing. Even if he did preach the true gospel, the "power" is first and the gospel second- the same as Benny Hinn.

What does that lead to? That leads to people who maybe "receive" Christ after he prays for them and they are healed. What is the expectation then? That this God is some kind of Santa? What is the difference between that kind of salvation message and the kind that tells you if you are a Christian you will be wealthy? It is the same message with a different flavor.

FIFTH, there are other theological errors that in my opinion are very dangerous. I do not remember all of them. The one that I remember right now is that he believes that all Spirit-filled believers must speak in tongues at the moment that they are baptized. If they do not, then they are demon possessed, something evil is in them, or they simply are not saved. It is clear from the scripture I quoted above that first, not all will speak in tongues, and second, it is the least of the gifts (the list was a hierarchical list), so why the emphasis on it by Torben and others? Would this not be the opposite of what the Lord would have us teach?

I have no doubt that Torben is well-intentioned. I believe that he truly wants to serve Christ. However, that does not make him right. There is a very true saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Torben also says some things that are true. That doesn't mean he is right about everything. The best deceptions are those which are mostly true and the falsehood is only a small part of the argument, and therefore hard to discern.

My part in this life is to stay on the narrow path, following only one leader, my Christ Who died for me. I feel no ill toward Torben. My part in this is to grant him mercy, just as I want mercy (James 2:13). I pray for his safety and that of his family. I also pray that the Lord can correct Torben's path so that he can be used mightily by God in the path of Christ.

Natalie

Dear bros and sisters in Christ,
This story has grabbed my spirit.
I watched the video by Torben and saw how broken,
humiliated and scorned he was by Danish authorities
And how betrayed he felt...by men and not by God.
He now warns us of literal persecution of Christians in Europe.

He is a believer, who has believed God and knows Christ.
His message is clear, we identify with Christ in our suffering.
He believes God heals physically as well as emotionally.
God has brought him through fire and he still holds to Jesus.

Do we not think that God will steer us aright if we veer
off course? He has straightened my theology out again and again,
and still I believe the whole counsel of God. The gifts are for us today,
In operation as we obey the Lord by His Spirit. We are going to need
physical healing more and more as we are cut off from govt health care
and expensive medical costs.

This morning I read in John 5 of Jesus going to the pool of Bethesda
where he sees multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame and withered
waiting for a miracle. Jesus discerns that one man who had been ill 38 years...you know the account. This man is healed. Jesus chose to heal him. Not everyone was healed.

We must walk with discernment and wisdom but to discount the gift of healing is foolish.

The Lord has healed me many times because I could not spend a fortune on doctors and medicines as my husband left me 20 years ago and abandoned his family. There are countless people whose lack of health keeps them from following Jesus and there are those who follow him with ill health. God's ways are not our ways. We have to trust him in sickness and in health but always believe that God took our sins on himself as well as our infirmities and diseases. And when we are healed, the glory goes to Him, to Jesus Christ and to no man, Glory Hallelujah!!!

I will pray for Torben and his family as well as believers in Denmark and Europe. Some of my ancestors were Danish, English and Scottish. I thank God for bringing them to America for asylum! We in America must remain vigilant for Christ and our freedom to preach the good news of Christ our Lord and move in all the gifts as God grants them to us one on one, day by day as the Holy Spirit leads.
Blessings upon His people this day. His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him.
L

PS. I thank God this website where we can get a glimpse of what is happening with other members of the Body in other nations! May God continue to protect SermonIndex ! Thank you Lord!!!

"Torben speaks in his videos of God revealing the truth in these last days but then that excludes most of Church history of missing this, this is the teaching of restorationism, that the truth and gospel was lost after the death of the apostles or at the time of constaine (AD 300) and now God is looking to restore the gospel back to the Church before the coming of the Lord. This is the belief and idea that most if not all cult groups have rested on to be able to promote any new ideas as the actual biblical apostolic truth being restored. or the Book of Acts for today."

I've been following Torben's teachings for a few years and I've read both his books (not sure if he has written any more). Brother Greg's comment is right. He is teaching restoration of the book of Acts. The main problem I had with Torben is that he focused mainly on the book of Acts and he doesn't focus on the epistles. The book of Acts is mainly a descriptive book while the epistles are prescriptive. Being prescriptive the epistles are where we need to focus. He is unbalanced in that sense. However I believe he is a brother and saved from what I've seen. I come from a classical pentecostal background. Pentecostals and charismatics are guilty of the same error where they are overly focused on the book of Acts.