Letting them walk away

Francis Chan (warning church leaders not to build their church to please people, but rather to please God):

"We're not doing people any favors by pretending they are the center of the universe. Either people will be awed by the sacred or they will not. If the sacred is not enough, then it is clear that the Spirit has not done a work in their lives. If the sheep don't hear His voice, let them walk away. Don't call out with your own voice."

Todd,

Where can I find this sermon? I'd like to hear it!

I hear what Francis is saying and I fully agree, but put your self in the pastors place for a moment so that you may understand in a small measure the gravity of "let them walk away".

A godly pastor must balance out the need for tending the sheep, caring for the weak, helping the ignorant, raising up the wounded and fearful with...delivering a message that on the surface sounds so much like "Its my way or the highway" take your pick! Many will take the highway because they do not understand and know the love of God as they should...a godly pastor knows this and sets himself in a place to bring the love of God to such a person.
There are men and women that frequent this discussion board that are in reality 'mighty men and women of valor' they have fought many a battle and won, the know the love of God deeply and when such a slogan is tossed out...they have no fear because the love of God has cast out fear of rejection.
But others are not yet aware and experienced in the love of God as they are and need more than 'let them walk'.

Again, some pastors are fearful such a statement will only garner a rapid loss of people, a huge loss in finances, a questioning board of elders and a congregation wondering why the pastor 'wants new converts and to disciple but is happy to send them out the back door very easily'.

While Francis wisdom in the matter is no doubt godly and I don't question it for a moment, I believe all of us should consider the office and ministry of a pastor is by no means an easy job and such statements while true may also cause heartache in them as well.

Hirelings are another matter altogether.

Savannah’- it is a quote from his book that just came out "letters to the church.”

Brother Todd,

Thank you for sharing this timely word from brother Francis. While I’m not sure when he said it, your sharing was (for me) in perfect step with the spirit of Christ as it is quite consistent with something He has been very patiently trying to teach me, which I must admit I’ve been somewhat resistant to due to my "programming”.
I hope you find this edifying and that the spirit of truth bears witness in spite of possibly being offensive...

Often nowadays "truth is sacrificed on the alter of niceness”,... it’s as if we’re trying to compensate for what is the inevitable effect of the truth being presented. Jesus never did this,... quite to the contrary, truth was always wrapped in love and love isn’t necessarily "nice”. Jesus, if we’re being honest, wasn’t really a "nice” person (especially when measured by modern PC terms). Now that is not to detract from the kindness, mercy, gentleness, or patience of our Lord for surely He is all that and more! However that, when carefully considering the narrative, does not equate to "niceness”.
In fact, in many readily observable cases, He was by all accounts harsh, abrupt, rude, or seemingly detached. These instances as recorded in the writ have been (for me) obvious - yet veiled in a sense by my "programming”. This programming is the product, not of Christ, but of the world as our Lord has so patiently and gently revealed by opening His word through His personal discourse with me. This unveiling has led me to gasp at the gaping misconceptions I have held regarding His person, His character as clearly and consistently revealed in the scriptures... yet I couldn’t/wouldn’t accept it as it did not conform to my programming.

This programming of which I speak is perhaps the common deception spoken about in scripture,... often I have observed myself and others act out of an obligation to be "nice” so as not to "seem” uncaring or
un-Christlike. It’s as if I/we are more concerned about not offending someone rather than preserving the integrity of the truth which we bear, effectively sacrificing the truth on an alter of niceness to appease the unbelieving world.
Again I submit to you our Lord never did this!
There is a subtle yet cancerous seed contained within that robs the body of believers of any demonstrable efficacy. As what we are ultimately doing (wether subconsciously or not) is taking Gods name in vain, believing that our benevolent intent is somehow more effective than God's Holy Spirit. Else why would we even consider not "letting the walk away” but calling with our own voices in vanity as if our call was more capable than the call of His Spirit!???

There are far too many instances of this practice of our worldly programming to list in detail but if you would bear with me a little longer there is one supposition that requires addressing as it’s affects are systemic in nature. We have a tendency to suppose that if our Lord says a thing it must be objectively true in all cases without first "testing” this hypothesis against the written record. As such many assumptive inferences find a well prepared home in our heart.
An example;
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Now we take this as a unilateral truth to be applied in all cases (where many an errant doctrines have taken root) yet when measured against the written record, this assumption, not our Lords words, comes up lacking.

Take the account in the gospels of the "rich young ruler” as against the story of "Zacchaeus” -
In the first we have an upright /innocent "law abiding” nobleman coming unto Jesus seeking salvation, yet he walks away sad... not at all finding that which he sought- assurance.
In the very next chapter by contrast we have a second account where a "known/self-admitted” sinner who himself dare not approach Jesus, yet was called by name... after Jesus invites Himself over for dinner, obliging the man publicly to host Him, this Zacchaeus who is obviously affected by Jesus imposing Himself upon him cannot but confess and repent immediately doing works meet with repentance!

Do you see it?
This I believe is (in part) what brother Francis is getting at by his statement... " If the sacred is not enough, then it is clear that the Spirit has not done a work in their lives. If the sheep don't hear His voice, let them walk away. Don't call out with your own voice."

In the first case Jesus Himself let an "innocent/law abiding” man walk away who had "come into him” ... yet in the second He Himself pursued a man who by all accounts wasn’t "seeking salvation” and was openly living in sin!

This is difficult to square with our "programming” ... our man made and quite presumptuous doctrines which attempt to lock the Spirit of the living God within a system of mans control of mans direction. I believe (personally) that this has robbed the body of Christ of any real demonstration of Gods love, grace, and power unto salvation as it is yet another attempt of man using God to his own ends rather than be used of God for His.

The question is.... who is really in control??
The "church” in its present form is very predictable in its actions and directives yet the Spirit as not only demonstrated but also proclaimed in scripture is as unpredictable as the wind;)

I started to post to this thread a few days ago, and then cancelled what I was going to write. However, I do feel like I have some input that is worth considering.

We have been experiencing a genuine move of the Holy Spirit in our fellowship for some time now. I have honestly never seen anything like it. People are being born again and their lives changed in some amazing ways. We have seen demons cast out and the person who was set free immediately began to prophesy, just like we read about in the book of Acts. We have gone on to see these people develop a hunger for God and for His word that is almost insatiable. As a result, I am seeing men and women mature spiritually at a rate that boggles the mind. We are seeing people healed of sicknesses and the gifts of the Spirit manifest in the body.

But we are seeing something else as well. We have seen a great number of people come into the body, stay for a while, and then leave. One couple in particular comes to mind. This lady found her identity in her singing. She had always "worked" for the Lord in whatever church she was at by singing. It was not long after she came that she wanted to sing, meaning to sing in front of people. The only problem with that was that God was very specific to us as leaders that He wanted only one piano player and a singer to lead us into worship. No "special number" and no large team of players and singers. So, there was nothing for her to "do" except get into the presence of God and allow Him to transform her life. She did not desire this. There were a few times when she saw others receiving from God and desired it, but she could not bring herself to surrender to Him and seek Him with everything she had. She could only see her life in the context of her talents and abilities. She left because she was not "being used" publicly.

I say that to say this. The motive of the heart is absolutely everything. We had great care and love for this woman, but her heart's motive was not to seek God with everything she had. Her hearts motive was to perform publicly. When she left, we were sad to see her go, but we were not about to try, of our own effort, to convince her to stay. She was not going the same direction as the body.

In Acts we read that God added to the church daily such as would be saved. There are those who will not be saved. There are those who do not have any desire or hunger for God and His word.

We have made the local church body and our services, at least in America, an evangelism location and event. We "bring them to church" so the pastor can preach about salvation, and we hope they "go forward" to be saved. But this is not at all the Biblical model of the local church body. The church is comprised of believers who come together for mutual edification and maturing (see Ephesians 4). Then we, as believers full of the power of God, go out into the world and shine as lights to the lost. We listen to the Holy Spirit and minister to those around us. We proclaim the good news of Christ, and we lead people to Him.

So what Francis Chan is saying is, in my opinion, spot on. There are those who have determined not to surrender to God. If we are not catering to their wishes, desires and whims (to their flesh), they decide that our church is not the place for them. We love them, but we allow them to leave, trusting God through His Holy Spirit to continue to work in their lives and bring them to repentance. We do not try to create an atmosphere where they are more comfortable, nor do we change our speech using our own words to try to beg them to stay.

Just a perspective. Hope it helps.

Great input from everyone. Maybe another was of expressing what Chan is saying is that most churches cater to the lowest common denominator when they should be catering to and in fact exist for the highest common denominator- namely true sold out believers.

Ravenhill talks about walking into a meeting and immediately sensing the overwhelming presence of God. I have experienced that a few times and none of them were your typical Sunday morning service. How I wish to God they were.

People are so willing to settle for less because it is easy and comfortable. But they do not know what they are missing.

Kurt: Brother, it has been a real process of God. He has had to totally rearrange our thinking and do a work of transformation in our lives. Yes, it continues. God is still doing great things. But the biggest thing He is doing is changing us personally.

For years I read about Wigglesworth, Lake, and the like. I read the book of Acts. On occasion during my life I have seen some very rare instances of these things happening among those I have fellowshipped with, but never on a consistent basis. I was hungry for more of God, and I knew that the manifestation of His Holy Spirit would be these things Biblically, but I did not know how to get there.

So, my wife and I went here and there and in and out of many different movements. We have been to many word of faith meetings and conferences. We spent time delving into IHOP KC and the prayer and prophetic movements. We somehow had it in our minds that someone must be "doing it right" and seeing the power of God manifest. But I have learned by experience that God's anointing and power is not found in any particular way of doing things.

You mentioned the simple music. That is not what is causing or contributing to what God is doing. That is simply something that God asked us as a body to do for the time being. He could just as easily tell us tomorrow to set up a worship team with many instruments, or start a choir, or just sing as a congregation. No magic formulas here. He just wanted that for our body for right now.

I say that to say this. We see people doing this or that and we see God moving, and we somehow think that what they are doing is the "right" thing to do to get God to move. We then seek to copy it, hoping for the same results. The only result is that we are off track, trying in our flesh to repeat something that is spiritual, and it always flops. It either dies or gets weird.

I will break this up and start another post.

I have learned that seeing a powerful move of God in my life is not a result of my adopting any particular set of practices. It is about my seeking to be transformed by God into the man that He has always intended for me to be.

So, as a church, we have been on a five year journey. God has absolutely transformed us and is continuing to do so (we have so far to go, and we realize that we fall so short of His glory). We have noticed that God has highlighted areas of our lives that He wants to change and then He has been very deliberate about keeping us focused on those areas for long periods of time. This has come through revelation of His word.

When I say revelation, I am not talking about some new teaching or doctrine. I am simply talking about His word suddenly becoming more than intellectual knowledge, and instead becoming a living and transforming agent in our lives. It is like His word is coming alive and we are seeing what He meant, what His heart is, more and more as we read and study.

These revelations have been in several key areas. One was a revelation of salvation and the gospel. We began to see that altar calls and sinners prayers for the sake of salvations is not what the gospel and the plan of salvation is all about. God's plan for each and every man was written before the foundations of the world. Each of us has, for lack of better words, a preordained destiny. The problem is, most people never realize this plan of God for their lives. His desire from the beginning was that we would be conformed to His image, be partakers of His divine nature, and walk as Jesus walked, empowered by His Holy Spirit, for the sake of being ministers of reconciliation to the world. To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God for that, but to be reconciled means to be restored to right relationship. Unfortunately, I believe, a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves.

So the second really big revelation was that we have been called to die before we can have new life. Rebirth cannot happen before death, and God made it so real to us that dying to self, total surrender to God, is the only path to true salvation. We have not had any kind of salvation altar call whatsoever in something like four years. Yet we are seeing people be born again and absolutely transformed. We have never, not even once, taught anything like a sinners prayer. Instead, we have taught death to self and total surrender to God.

The third was a powerful revelation of God's love for us. This is one that absolutely transformed by own life. So many believers have a view that God's love for them is predicated on their own performance. Some just don't understand what love is at all. But God has made this so powerfully real to us. From that foundation of His love, we have seen our faith grow by leaps and bounds.

The fourth was what it means to walk in the Spirit.

The fifth, and what we are now in the middle of, is a revelation of His righteousness imputed to us. This one is also very powerful in my own life.

There have been others, but it seems like these have been the main things God has reiterated to us over and over again.

God also told us that we needed some sort of discipleship program. We prayed about it and He gave us about eight lessons that are foundational for believers. Every new believer goes through a nine week class that covers these lessons. We call it New Beginners. We feel that this has been very foundational and many people have gotten their start here in the process of God transforming their lives.

But before you think that any of these things is responsible for God's move, I must say that is not the case. These are the things God has used to grow us and mature us so that we are more able to be used by Him. The primary thing that we have seen is that we have been willing to simply abandon ourselves to Him. No pretense. No formula. No commitment to maintaining a denominational focus, doctrine, or format. The leadership has simply made a commitment to seeking God with everything they have and being humble and obedient to whatever He tells us to do. Prayer is a big key, but not because we are trying to "pray anything in". Prayer is for the sake of allowing God to transform us personally.

I believe God's default mode is to use us in power. It is all over scripture. He is just waiting on us to be surrendered to Him. I truly believe that if we are not being used as we know God desires to do, it is entirely and 100% our fault. The thing to do is to get before God and ask Him to reveal what areas of our lives we need to surrender to Him and allow Him to change us in any way He desires to change us.

I know we so often seek a magic formula. if I do A, B, and C, then God will respond by doing D. But that just does not exist. Tried it, found it to fail, and praise God I am abandoning it. It really boils down to, "How much of Him do I want?" My actions will demonstrate my true answer to this question.

Kurt: Thank you for the reply brother. I don't think I misunderstood. I did not think that you were looking for a formula. I think that in the past I thought that there must be a formula. God has been teaching me differently. He has shown me that it is passionate pursuit and intimacy, nothing else, that produces His power in my life. I look forward to communicating with you. Love your heart brother. God bless.

Hi Travis:

You said: "To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God for that, but to be reconciled means to be restored to right relationship. Unfortunately, I believe, a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves."

As it stands the first part is bologna, the second I agree in context of your statement.

Reconcilation with God is part of a package of new covenant blessings. Reconcilation, imputed righteousness, forgiveness of sins, indwelling Spirit of God, eternal life, sonship, adoption, and the promises of continued sanctification by the Spirit are just some of the "new birth" works of God.

Reconciliation is not isolated in scripture as a specific event/work of the Spirit, it is part and parcel of being born of God and all that goes with it.

If I have misunderstood, please elaborate so I can receive all what you said without condition.

Bro. Marvin

I honestly am not sure what you meant in your reply to my post. Don't know what "the first part" that is bologna refers to. The term reconcile means to restore to right relationship. This was done through the blood of Jesus Christ. God did not offer His Son so that I could have an eternal existence in heaven. He offered His Son to bring me back into right relationship with Him again. He always had a plan and a purpose for me, from before the foundation of the world. But a Holy God, by His law, made manifest the enmity that existed between us. I have now been reconciled and the enmity has been slain in the body of Christ on the cross. I am now at peace with God, reconciled to Him, back in right relationship.

I agree, the work of God in my life goes on. He is changing me from glory to glory into His image. But I have been reconciled to Him through Christ.

See 2 Cor. 5, Ephesians 2, and Colossians 1.

Hi Travis: Well, that's what I get for being in a hurry.

Quote "To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God for that, but to be reconciled means to be restored to right relationship. Unfortunately, I believe, a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves."

The first part is..."To be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven."

The second is...a vast number of Christians have not real concept of this. Their salvation is about their own ticket to heaven and the promise of a blessed life for themselves."

I took issue with reconciliation 'does not mean' to be qualified for heaven. It certainly does mean that and much much more.
Texts such as Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

As I explained earlier, reconciliation is the work of God where in lay forgiveness of sins, our adoption and sonship, our imputed righteousness etc. To say reconciliation does not qualify us for heaven is also to say forgiveness of sins fails too, as well as sonship and righteousness.
Reconciliation is chained with these gracious works of God so that we have more than forgiveness we have reconciliation and more than reconciliation we have the Spirit of God and with that Eternal life.

The idea I am attempting to convey is similar to this text
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption...

In Christ there is more than sanctification there is redemption etc.
So with reconciliation there is righteousness, peace with God, the Holy Spirit.
To omit one aspect calls all others into suspicion because with reconciliation belong all the rest of God's gracious works on our behalf.

Those who are reconciled to God are possessors of eternal life and inheritors of the world to come.

Travis, I hardly think you would disagree with any of this, but it may have been mis-stated and/or I misconstrued your meaning.

Wow! Amazing thread - so much meat and so edifying.Thank- you and God bless you all for sharing this.

Sandra

Marvin: Let me see if I can say what I was meaning more clearly. We assign so much meaning to words sometimes that just hearing the word will bring up certain mental images and ideas. There are many things that occur when we are born again. There are many facets to our growth in Christ. But the question is, what is the purpose of His sacrifice and of the gospel of the new covenant? I think that, for some time now, the American church at large has made it about having our ticket punched. How many times have you heard this altar call? "If you were to die tonight, do you know where you would spend eternity? Would it be with God in heaven, or in eternal hell?" Suddenly the gospel becomes about me gaining an eternal reward and avoiding hell. This altar call is not the gospel. Heaven and hell is not what it is all about.

But the focus of the gospel has always been restoration of right relationship with God. it has always been about Him bringing many sons to glory, not many people to heaven. It is about enmity with Him being done away with and intimacy restored. Why intimacy? Because it is through communion with Him with open face (nothing between us and full relationship restored) that we are changed from glory to glory into His image. His desire is to know His bride and to have them be partakers of His divine nature. It is about death to self and rebirth into the life of God.

Heaven will be awesome. There are times when I feel like my heart cries, "Even so Lord come quickly." But heaven is not what redemption is all about. The plan of redemption is about restoration of relationship (reconciliation) and transformation into His image. That is why I said that to be reconciled does not mean to be qualified for heaven. Praise God that by being reconciled I reap the reward of eternity in His presence, but that is not in and of itself what reconciliation is. It is a result of being reconciled.

I think the problem all too often is that we mistake the benefit for the purpose. Does being reconciled mean that I am going to heaven. Praise God yes. Is reconciliation about going to heaven? I would say no, and also that to say it was about going to heaven would be to preach much less than the truth, and possibly lead people astray.