“Prayer uses God”

Darius posted a very excellent "prayer acrostic” by Evan Roberts, in the Revival board.

The letter "P” reads:

"Prayer uses God. Command Him constantly and believingly for a performance of His will.”
(Luke 1.45)

This does not bother me at all, but might make some folks squeamish.

What do y’all think?

Bologna meter

1 very little nonsense, a good biblical representation
10 Useless nonsense that is as unbiblical as it is reprehensible to godly thinking.

"Commanding God in prayer" = 10

The only folks that actually think God can be commanded in prayer are those who have been influenced by or are instructed by the false teachers of our generation.

A godly man has no need to command God. Taking Jesus example, he didn't command his Father, he didn't teach anything where commanding God was part of being a disciple, apostle or believer.

Cooperation with God is never God relinquishing his God-hood, Lordship, Sovereignty, wisdom, understanding.

Without making this a lengthy post, I'll just jump to a specific conclusion. That conclusion being; godly men/women do not need to command God because it is un-necessary. The godly are dead to self, dead to autonomous thinking and living. Since God is already ruling, reigning, providing and guiding the godly, what is there to commanding God that God has not already offered by promise?
The godly partake of the exceeding great and precious promises, where God has promised to perform, a promise to perform has no implications where God must be commanded to perform them.

It is my conclusion they that think and teach God can and should be commanded are thinking in terms of autonomous-self independent of God, requiring of God to perform as if God has dropped his Lordship and we are now his lord.
Short of blasphemous, this idea is necessary so that it can link up with other equally silly and stupid theologies "The force of faith", "The word of Faith", where our over-inflated importance links up with autonomous self will.
It then capitalizes on God's word and uses it in a way that makes us Lord over our world.

A godly man does not need to command God, he has busied himself in learning to listen to the Spirit of God lead and guide him into truth, life and fruitfulness. His prayers are prayers that he believes are 'God's will' and therefore prays in order that "Thy kingdom come, they will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

They that command God must in the end pray "my kingdom come, my will be done on earth as it will be in heaven".

//The only folks that actually think God can be commanded in prayer are those who have been influenced by or are instructed by the false teachers of our generation.//

Do you think that applies to Evan Roberts? He wrote it.

If Franklin Graham wrote it, or whoever we esteem highly wrote it, I consider them dead wrong.

"The only folks that actually think God can be commanded in prayer are those who have been influenced by or are instructed by the false teachers of our generation."

Brother,

I realize that there is much foolishness and presumption in many of the prayers that are prayed out of the will of God, but God has given His Church authority on the earth to bind and to loose. God has said in His Word "Thus said the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command you me." (Isaiah 45:11). This is what is known as authoritative prayer. Well seasoned intercessors understand this kind of prayer for it is the prayer of command in agreement with God's will. If God has said it, then the saints on earth and been given the authority to declare the will of God in any given situation.

This is what Watchman Nee wrote concerning Matthew 18:18
"The movement of heaven follows the movement of the earth. Heaven listens to the words on earth and acts on the earth's command. Whatsoever is bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever is loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven. It is not a asking on earth but a binding on earth; it is not asking on earth but a loosing on earth. And this is authoritative prayer."

"Such an expression can be found in Isaiah 45:11, which runs; "Command ye me." How do we dare to command God? Is not this too preposterous? too presumptuous? But this is what God himself says. Doubtless we should not in the least allow the flesh to come in here. Nevertheless we are hereby shown that there is a commanding prayer. According to God's viewpoint we may command Him. Such utterance needs to be learned specifically by all students of prayer."

From "The Prayer Ministry of The Church" by Watchman Nee

From The Hebrew Lexicon - Isaiah 45:11

Thus
כֹּֽה־ (kōh-)
Adverb
Strong's Hebrew 3541: Like this, thus, here, now

says
אָמַ֧ר (’ā·mar)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 559: To utter, say

the LORD,
יְהוָ֛ה (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3068: LORD -- the proper name of the God of Israel

the Holy
קְד֥וֹשׁ (qə·ḏō·wōš)
Adjective - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6918: Sacred, God, an angel, a saint, a sanctuary

One of Israel,
יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל (yiś·rā·’êl)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3478: Israel -- 'God strives', another name of Jacob and his desc

and its Maker:
וְיֹצְר֑וֹ (wə·yō·ṣə·rōw)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Participle - masculine singular construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 3335: To mould into a, form, as a, potter, to determine

"How dare you
הָאֹתִיּ֣וֹת (hā·’ō·ṯî·yō·wṯ)
Article | Verb - Qal - Participle - feminine plural
Strong's Hebrew 857: To arrive

question Me
שְׁאָל֔וּנִי (šə·’ā·lū·nî)
Verb - Qal - Imperative - masculine plural | first person common singular
Strong's Hebrew 7592: To inquire, to request, to demand

concerning
עַל־ (‘al-)
Preposition
Strong's Hebrew 5921: Above, over, upon, against

My sons,
בָּנַ֛י (bā·nay)
Noun - masculine plural construct | first person common singular
Strong's Hebrew 1121: A son

or instruct
תְּצַוֻּֽנִי׃ (tə·ṣaw·wu·nî)
Verb - Piel - Imperfect - second person masculine plural | first person common singular
Strong's Hebrew 6680: To lay charge (upon), give charge (to), command, order

Me about
וְעַל־ (wə·‘al-)
Conjunctive waw | Preposition
Strong's Hebrew 5921: Above, over, upon, against

the work
פֹּ֥עַל (pō·‘al)
Noun - masculine singular construct
Strong's Hebrew 6467: Doing, deed, work

of My hands?
יָדַ֖י (yā·ḏay)
Noun - fdc | first person common singular
Strong's Hebrew 3027: A hand

--------------------------------

The word translated from the Hebrew in this verse as command, is used only once in the OT Scriptures. And whether it's translated 'instruct' or 'command' doesn't give the interpretation to mean anything of the sort of interpretation some are attempting to give to it.

Looking at the context of chapter 45 of Isaiah, it's obvious that God is not encouraging anyone to command Him in any wise.

"Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:"Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
I made the earth and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.
I have stirred him up in righteousness,
and I will make all his ways level;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 45:9-13

When I first read the quote I bristled a bit at the use of "command" but the key phrase in this for me is.."for a performance of his will."

HIS will...not mine...not yours...but His.

I was reminded of Daniel's prayer in chapter 9. He had read what Jeremiah said about the length of time for the desolation of Jerusalem and knew the time was up. Yes, he prayed confession and repentance and agreement with God's judgement. Then in verse 19 he says,

"O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

I suppose some could see that as a "command" but the point is Daniel was seeking God to do what He already said He would do.....to perform His will.

And that is how we should pray... for His will not ours... often harder than it sounds.

Have a blessed day!

___________
REJOICE!
Mary

"God of course is sovereign and can do all things, but he does choose to allow man to co-operate in his work and at many times limits himself to our prayers to accomplish his will. We hold the keys that can set in motion many things."
(Brother Greg)

We have been involved in intercession and prayer for many years now, and I have never heard a intercessor say; "God I command you to do this or that." But this is an example of what we do say;
"God we stand on the Word of God, you have said that you would do this or that, and Lord, we know that you are not a man that should lie, your Word is true, your promises are true, and Lord we believe that you will do what you have said. Lord, we thank you and praise you that your Word never comes back empty, but it will accomplish that which you sent it to do. Therefore Lord, we declare your Word over this situation in Jesus name!

Please do not confuse this with name it, claim it praying that is outside of the will of God.

We always must base our praying on the will of God as revealed by the Spirit and the Word of God.

"And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him.… (1 John 5:14,15)

proseúxomai (from 4314 /prós, "towards, exchange" and 2172/euxomai, "to wish, pray") ”“

properly, to exchange wishes; pray ”“

literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith ("divine persuasion").

Accordingly, praying (4336/proseuxomai) is closely inter-connected with 4102 /pístis ("faith") in the NT. - (Strong)

"And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we already possess what we have asked of Him.… (1 John 5:14,15)

AMEN.

. This is what is known as authoritative prayer. Well seasoned intercessors understand this kind of prayer for it is the prayer of command in agreement with God's will. If God has said it, then the saints on earth and been given the authority to declare the will of God in any given situation.

I believe Mike nailed it here. This is the distinction. I might add a few things I have learned over the years to this.

Authority with God has nothing to do with the words we use. Ending a prayer with, "In Jesus Name" in no way indicates that we actually prayed in His name. Praying in His name is praying from a place of authority that is delegated to us by means of our surrender and intimacy with Him. It is praying as His representative. I represent Him as a son, not a servant. The servant conducts limited business in the name of the master because He has the masters legal authority. A son conducts business AS the Father because He has the Father's heart. When we, as a son that abides in the presence of the Father and has His heart, pray in accordance with the will of God, we can command the same things that the Father has commanded and see results.

All too often we have only a legal relationship with the Father. We know His laws, and we do our best in our flesh to keep those laws. They might be OT laws, or they might be what we would call NT principles. This is where we get it all messed up. We intellectually ascent to principles of faith that we have read or been taught, and we try to apply the principles with little result. Or we pray outside of His will because we are wanting to consume the answer upon our own lust, or perhaps because we are ignorant of His will and His ways and are simply praying based upon what man has taught us. In this we may be totally sincere, but God has not blessed sentiment, rather He has blessed His will and the faith that comes from true relationship.

Lets put it practically. A man who knows God and walks in constant intimacy prays for a sick person and simply says, "Sickness, be gone in Jesus name." The sickness leaves the person's body, and that person is healed instantly.

Then the man who knows the principles of God's word, but does not walk in intimacy, see this and thinks, "Oh, that is the secret. I have been praying wrong. I need to command the sickness to leave." Then this man tries to implement his new found method of prayer, and sees no results. This man is then confused and perplexed.

Just what I have noticed over the years.

literally, to interact with the Lord by switching human wishes (ideas) for His wishes as He imparts faith ("divine persuasion").

Love it!!! Good definition. I die to myself and my own wishes, desires, and wisdom and I now live with His imparted to and through me as I am intimate with Him.

Thanks Savannah for the Hebrew clarification of the Isaiah text.
Back in 82-83 I ran into this when the faith teachers began to spout out our 'commanding of God' and they quoted this text. My spirit was disturbed by it so I read the Isa 45 text carefully...again and again. I saw clearly as Savannah opened the Hebrew of the text that God was not telling them to command him, instead he was speaking rhetorically of their audacity to 'command him'.

I do believe Mike is right on, we do have authority as believers to command...but those commands are directed at Demons, sickness, the elements. Just as Jesus did.

Travis shared a wonderful truth, that our prayers are relationally motivated and relationally directed.

The Spirit of God reveals the will of God to us, and transforms our mind and hearts to truly desire what God desires, to love and seek after what God seeks and loves. Here, there is cooperation because this agreement is the seed bed for prayers that are answered. In recognizing this, I recognize the silliness of 'commanding God', where it is not God that has a problem with working in this world, it's you and I that have a problem wanting what God wants in this world. When our conformity to his desires are accomplished...why command God when in fact it was God preparing us to accept what God has wanted all along?

Therefore I have said it is un-necessary.

But teaching that 'uses God' has faith acting independently of God's relation to us. This is foreign to scripture and as far as I am concerned anathema.

Marvin: A very simple truth...faith which worketh by love. Faith is based entirely upon relationship, not upon intellectual or mental conviction. As I am intimate with Him, I am transformed into His image and the result is that I begin to think and act as He does. It becomes easy to believe Him because I KNOW Him and am walking in His love continually. I really believe it is this simple. The key is not found in trying to gin up more faith. The key is found in surrender and intimate relationship with Him that naturally brings faith.

Brother Travis:

great insight and well said. It is this very thing that is key to understanding why some are healed and some are not. This key opens up a door to faith, where we know God will answer our faith in him and bring about good to others. In discerning those whom you are praying for, when you are laying hands on them or ministering to them in some form, you learn that God requires faith in some for an answer, and requires only faith from you for others. Without this discernment or open-eared-readiness I've discovered I missed it expecting faith from others, and missed it when I should have believed God for faith from them in agreement. I see Jesus ministering this way, expecting faith from some and showing compassion without faith-from-them, both of them God honored and revealed his goodness and kindness.

Formulaic prayers that are based upon principle-in-action leave out this vital component.

Relationship with God is dynamic, a right now in-the-moment reality. I see this in Jesus ministry, his actions depict in-the-moment activity where his Father speaks and heals, corrects or teaches, delivers or feeds; he does this through his Son. Jesus prayers beforehand, in the early morning, in the evening, at night show the necessity for preparedness.

We see this in our blessed preachers who have spent their time with God and come out of their prayer closets with revelation and anointing...which feeds hungry sheep.
But we see little of this in other areas, healing, deliverance, miracles are so lampooned and mocked even when we want them we are jaded and cynical in the extreme.
Because of this kind of peer-approval, an anointed sermon is expected, an anointed man to heal...nah it's fake.

So, while I hear nothing but crickets out there from those who might approve of 'commanding God', I see by your posting Mike's and others commanding God seems out of place altogether when a rich and intimate relationship with God is present in the life of a godly man or woman.

At best, it's injection into a teaching comes from errant interpretation of Isaiah and a lack of the very relationship you speak of.

A servant commanding his master? I have never heard of such a thing. If that was the case then the master is the servant and vice versa.