Dead in HIM

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

CRUCIFIED - DEAD To be crucified (past tense) one must be declared 100% dead.

Flesh, affections, lusts, DEAD. They that "are CHRIST's, are 100% DEAD with HIM. It is impossible to immerse yourself into HIS life, and yet not be 100% dead to your own life and will.

One can only conclude, as I understand it then, that only those who have done this, are immersed (baptized) into HIS life. The others, are imposters. They say they are "believers" yet their will is yet their "god". Or shall we say "gods". All the passions that deviate from searching out, knowing HIS will, and willing to die to obey HIM, reveal apostasy. Falling away from the TRUTH.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

In as much as you are dead to self, you are alive in HIM, with all the benefits of the inheritance lavished upon you. But if what you want, trumps what HE wants, you just may not be born again...yet.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The revelation of this vs 20 here, changed my life. NO LONGER I WHO LIVES. I must DIE FIRST, for HIM to live within me. HE does not come to live with me. HE comes to live instead of me. I DIE. HE LIVES.

All SIN and disobedience is proof that YOU/I STILL LIVE IN THE FLESH. Self will, instead of HIS WILL. HE CANNOT and WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT! You offer yourself as a living sacrifice, dead yet alive, or you have no access to GRACE. Selah.

AMEN!!!
This is the cardinal truth of our faith and my prayer is that the Lords word would rouse His children, awakening them from their slumber and raising their voices as one - shining like stars in the universe as they hold out the words of life to a depraved and crooked generation 🙏🏻

May we examine ourselves (by this scripture Gal 5:24) to be sure we are in THE faith-
The faith that was once delivered and which we received and wherein IF we stand we should not be ashamed but shall rejoice and say Holy Holy is the Lamb of God who takes AWAY the sin of the world that we (His children) may no longer live therein 🙏🏻

Was the Paul in Romans 7 saved, yet?

You asked if Paul was "saved” in Romans 7...
while the context for your question is clear, may you be more specific regarding the term saved as you are using it here?

People often use that term to mean something other than what the scriptures state, in fact it has become increasingly vague and ambiguous much like the term Christianity/Christian in that when someone uses it as an identifier it’s not clear what idea or position they intend to convey - so that you for clarifying and helping me to understand what you are asking.

Sure Fletcher-

The context was this statement in the OP:
/But if what you want, trumps what HE wants, you just may not be born again...yet./

Technically I should have asked was Paul born again... yet?

Ahhhh that helps!

From a straight reading of that chapter culminating with Paul crying;

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”

The straight answer would be, no-
At least not until which point he realized that he (himself) was the problem and sought to be delivered...

Interestingly from a syntactical standpoint, just the contrast between chapter 7 to 8, regarding the number of times "I " is employed reveals that something significant took place after the 24th vs of chapter 7 whereby the writer himself is no longer the focus but rather the truth of what God has accomplished for us through Christ Jesus and just how He provided for us, He expects us to actively participate in that we are being led not by our flesh (ie;being our own God, making decisions based on the knowledge of good and evil) but by the Spirit of God,... the degree to which we see our need of Him and submit to His will (denying our will/flesh) is the degree to which we are being "saved” which is why in scripture it (salvation unto eternal life) is referred to as a "hope”...

In being totally honest with you,.. I believe "salvation” to be far far more difficult and costly than any of us (in the western world) would even begin to imagine,...
So it seems we (different denominations) have picked our favorite
"-tions” (reformatTION, justificaTION, regeneraTION, sanctificaTION, consercraTION, etc...) and reduced salvation to nearly fit inside just one of these in an easily (to swallow) quantifiable way, a formula if you will... but this is not the testimony of scripture.

And if the Exodus doesn’t paint an eye opening picture of Gods requirements of us then what else is there??
Here we have a clear picture of people being "saved”- "delivered” - "set free”- "kept”- "covered”- "led” etc... etc... and yet out of the many (possibly 2 million) that were "saved” only 2 from that generation entered the promised land, with the rest being destroyed by God because of their unbelief and this being referenced in the New Covenant as an example to us lest we fall by the same patterns 😳 errrr ummm hello!??
Now God was plenty patient and they were clearly given grace in that they had the cloud of mist, the column of fire, mana from heaven, water from rock,.... and yet just like them we want to turn back to our flesh/the world to seek its provisions and we think we are safe for destruction because of grace?!!! 🥺 that for some reason, even tho the whole testimony of scripture... including the words of our Lord Himself telling us "few there be that enter” so to "strive to enter the straight gate”... says otherwise, that we are somehow gonna get to live all friendly with the declared enemy of our Lord (world/flesh) and still get the golden ticket 😰... I can’t imagine a more clear depiction of deception and so the scriptures saith "except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish” -

I believe Saul/Paul was born again the second he said "Who are you, Lord?” in Acts 9:5. The moment he recognized Jesus as Lord and had every intention of being a bond-servant of Christ.

Paul’s admits to a struggle with the flesh in Rom 7, as all believers do. But he was still born again in the midst of the struggle. We are not saved by works nor are we kept saved by works. Nothing could be clearer in the NT than that fact. True faith will produce works without doubt but this is not a "chicken or the egg” type dilemma. Faith comes first and works flow from faith.

Please help me to understand... are you saying that the Romans 7 "experience” was not a current one but was the writer referring to a time when he was born again?
Or are you suggesting that the Romans 7 "experience” was just another everyday average struggle with the flesh that all believers must endure?

I have heard lot of explanation on Romans 7 and 8, none have been logically and spiritually balanced compared to Zac Poonen's teaching on this subject. Romans 7 is a life where Paul after being born again lived as a legalist. We have all experienced this phase in our Christian life in which we instead of living by Spirit, live by law. Romans is a progressive book. In romans 6 itself Paul is done with Justification, Romans 7 is living by Law instead of Spirit. Romans 8 is death to law and alive in Spirit.

I would suggest everyone to Listen to Zac Poonen's verse by verse study of Romans 7 and 8. They are wonderful, I am sure most believers have got wrong understanding of Romans 7 and 8.

https://cfcindia.com/verse-by-verse/Romans

Fletcher-

I do believe that true believers experience struggles with the flesh. Dying to self means not giving in to those struggles. The fact that there is a struggle does not mean the person is not born again. But now they NOTICE the struggle, because they are born again, and desire to overcome.

Yes, I believe it is an everyday struggle. Just my honest opinion.

Thank you for clarifying...

And yes we will (according to scripture) experience different trials and struggles in our flesh and with our flesh however the experience being illustrated in Romans 7-8 is again (according to scripture) distinctive even from a syntactical perspective...

But perhaps we are talking past one another and in an effort to better understand you,... can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase "born again”?

We could possibly be using this term differently-

//can you explain what you mean when you use the phrase "born again”?//

Is that a trick question?

Not at all ....

How could you be tricked by helping me to understand what you are saying when you use a phrase that may mean something different to me?

Not necessarily incompatibly different but there is likely some difference worth noting and it could be that I am misusing the term to include more than it does and thereby unwittingly misspeaking when I use it-

Being born again is a place of "entering” whereby God grants eternal life to a person who places his faith in Jesus Christ, meaning he believes correctly about who Jesus was, and that his death on the cross was necessary as an atonement for sin. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:12. Repentance is a necessary part of this process.

The issue on the table seems to be whether anything is required in addition to faith for a person to be born again. I would strongly argue "no.” Where I might be willing to argue is what "saving faith” means or what it means to "believe.” It means more than mental assent but I am not sure how much more is possible to state with certainty, which is why we are admonished to examine ourselves.

Yes we are using that term to describe different events- that is why I had misunderstood what you were intending...

I would like to know what two events you are referring to.

I believe Fletcher has explained it in detail,... Although my love and care is also w/ you other brothers.

Should we not,.. or in other words,.. would it not be of the highest importance to re-examine the true meaning of some important words, and how they are used in Scriptures?

Words that, that have been taken down through a ‘tradition’ , to take on a different meaning ,.. a softer meaning,.. a distorted meaning, rather than the original intention?

A real study of these Words,...

Here are just some of those Words:

*Jesus’ Name: What is His Name ? Jesus’ Name is NOT just *Jesus*,..
His Name is *the whole Word of God.

*The true meaning of ‘Faith’ , and how it is used in the Bible ?.. please consider *Abraham* faith, God, Who is Spirit, spoke to Abraham,..Abraham heard God,.. He *Believed* it was God,.. *Obeyed God after being ‘led by the Spirit of God

* the true meaning of ‘Believe’ .. how it is used in the Bible. ?(refer back Abraham)

* and what about the *Faith of Jesus, or Jesus’ Faith that He heard His Father,God,.. and walked it out.. obeyed (The Faith of Jesus Christ)

* Grace, ,. And how it is used according to Lordship in His kingdom that we
have been called into ?

If the kingdom of God, .. (The Word), That we have been called into,is a resurrection Life,..Where The Lord resurrects His very Life in us, to Live out His Life in us,.. ( Not I that liveth, but Christ that Liveth in me)....ye are dead. ... (in order to Live).. Spiritually minded,.. led by His Spirit.

But the carnally minded is death,..( to the Life of God)

Paul says that it is *THE* high calling’ of God ,.. (God,..The Word)

We seek not to be deceived,... and our hearts desire to help others that may be deceived.....

just truly caring,

””””””””””-♥️
elizabeth

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I believe Saul/Paul was born again the second he said "Who are you, Lord?” in Acts 9:5. The moment he recognized Jesus as Lord and had every intention of being a bond-servant of Christ.

Paul’s admits to a struggle with the flesh in Rom 7, as all believers do. But he was still born again in the midst of the struggle. We are not saved by works nor are we kept saved by works. Nothing could be clearer in the NT than that fact. True faith will produce works without doubt but this is not a "chicken or the egg” type dilemma. Faith comes first and works flow from faith.

Paul talks in Romans 6 about baptism into Christ's death through which the old man is dead and the new life is now the life of Christ living in me. Paul then contrasts his life under the law as a Pharisee with the new life in Christ described in Romans 6. (Notice he talks about being married to the law and then through death being free to be married to another.)So while Paul was a believer when he wrote Romans 7, he is describing his life before Christ while he was attempting in the flesh to follow God by keeping the law. He then turns around again at the end of the chapter and brings up back to the new life in Christ and the victory that we have when we walk in the Spirit rather than walking in the flesh (our own effort).

I do not believe Paul was talking about a believers struggle in any way, shape, or form. Our problem in interpreting in that way is that we are trying to interpret scripture through the lenses of our own flesh and emotion rather than through the lenses of the victory that we have in Christ . Recall that Paul makes statements in chapter 6 of the absolutely unequivocal victory over sin that we have through our baptism in to Christs death and resurrection by His life.

As to being born again, we also find that in Romans 6. It is a baptism into His death and a resurrection to new life in Him. When He died, we died with Him. But we must through faith surrender ourselves to that death and be resurrected by the Spirit into new life. Remember Jesus said that if any man would come after me let him first deny himself and take up his cross and follow Jesus. Follow Him where? To His death and resurrection.

God, I am done with living for me. I believe that You died for me and will resurrect me to new life in You. So I lay my life down at your feet, knowing that Your death and resurrection bring me forgiveness and new life.

It is a spiritual transaction.

That is why water baptism is so amazing. It is the physical picture of death, burial, and resurrection, of spiritual rebirth and new life in Him. Water baptism is the picture, the physical representation if you will, of the actual baptism described in Romans 6.

Romans 7 is a life where Paul after being born again lived as a legalist. We have all experienced this phase in our Christian life in which we instead of living by Spirit, live by law.

I believe that this is a very good observation, but there's more to consider.

It's interesting how discussion of Romans 7 always seems to revolve around whether Paul is thinking about his condition before or after conversion. But the question of Christian or Non-Christian hardly enters his line of argument.

Paul's focus is on the relationship between man and the law, whether the man is Christian or not. A Christian is certainly not under the law, but should he turn back to it instead of remaining totally dependent upon the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then he will find himself just as helpless as a non-Christian and, like him, having nothing more to rely upon than his own strength of character. So the tragedy repeats itself: sin finds occasion through the commandment.

In Christ,