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Smokin' Church

sermonindex Jul 12, 2005

Just wanted to see how people felt about this...A friend of ours asked if our two older boys could come to their church's VBS. I said we'd check it out. So since our house church was not meeting this weekend, we visited their Sunday morning service. Good fundamental KJV church... everything was cool. The music was fantastic... the sermon was hard and convicting. Everything seemed great.... until we went outside about about half the church lit up.We have a couple people in our house churches that havent kicked the habit yet... and thats ok. You can be saved and smoke. I dont recommend it, and I think a Christian ought to quit smoking because of the destructiveness of it.But even Charles Spurgeon smoked cigars now and then. I have been known to smoke a cigar when I'm camping... but what I am referring to here is habitual 2 pack a day smoking... which is what I witness at this church.So my friend dropped by later in the afternoon and asked what we thought. I said everything was great, but man... there are a lot of smokers there... that caught me a little off guard. He said "Oh yea, the preachers chews tobacco too."Ive been praying about this, asking God "What am I supposed to be seeing here? What are You trying to teach me?"I went last night to the VBS, and while the kids were in classes, my friend and I hung out on the front porch of the fellowship hall. Eventually, because of the rain, there were about 20 adults out there hanging out... and my friend and I were the only ones not smoking. Then here comes the pastor... he sticks a big hunk of RedMan in his mouth and begins chewin' and spittin'.What really saddened my heart was there was a woman there who was probably 5 months pregnant with a 2 yr old on her lap... and the mom was just a puffin away... literally chain smoking.What do you all think of this? Biblical doctrine, preaching salvation, hell is hot, people on their faces at the alter at the end, preacher obviously had a burden on his soul when he was preaching... but major major tobacco addiction going on there.I'm not judging anyone there... I'm just very confused by all of it, not knowing what to think.Any thoughts? Krispy

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Joshua99 Jul 12, 2005

Grace, Grace, and the need of prayer, for in that situation, only the Holy Spirit can deal with the hearts of each person. I used to smoke cigars while working, most of the time,only when I worked. Then as I became more on fire for Jesus, loving Him and His Spirit purifying my heart with the Word of God. Smoking then was placed on the altar, not because brothers and sisters got in my face. I needed Christ to replace what was lacking in my heart-causing me to desire a fix, smoking. I have been free now 8 months, because of the Grace of God. I'm saying I don't even think about it..PERIOD! Now this is freedom. Yes, I prayed for years to quit, BUT I wasn't serious until an event took place last November, when the Lord got my attention. As a teacher of God's Word, I rather teach And lift up Jesus before all men and let The Holy Spirit do His work, to release and restore His people, this way it lasts for eternity! :-)

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philologos Jul 12, 2005

This is a verse from a Weslye hymn we often sing..In darkness willingly I strayed,I sought Thee, yet from Thee I roved;Far wide my wandering thoughts were spread,Thy creatures more than Thee I loved;And now if more at length I see,’Tis through Thy light and comes from Thee.You can't rush revelation. Pray for them.

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RobertW Jul 12, 2005

You can't rush revelation. Pray for them.Amen. Smoking is a real pet-peeve 'sin' in our camp. It gets hit more than any other. Yet, it was not a cigarette that has split our church more than once. It was rife immorality. I have also pondered this question. I think the closest to smoking I ever came was once I though I would try to light a cigarette- it never made it any farther than a few sparks. I don't feel more spiritual because of it. I have my own weaknesses to deal with. In reality I believe that much of the concern comes because we are wanting to project an image to the world that Christians don't smoke- because we were raised to believe that.Finney talked about going into meeting houses and men spitting on the floors and even in the seats! This was before it was preached against as a sin. In later writings he starts coming down on the habit as a "waste of the Lord's money." maybe he was sick of trying to wipe down seats in the church house or getting stools for the ladies to stand on so they didn't have to stand in the spit. He was especially upset about people trying to kneel in prayer and not being able to focus on God for the mess under their legs (I think this is in Lecture XIII). Well, in time tobacco use became a favorite sin to preach against. It is a pet peeve that I believe people who 'quit' smoking when they got 'saved' want to impose on everyone because they gave up something well beloved and by George everyone else better also. I never saw that preaching do anything other than make the people feel unworthy to be in among believers. I watched smoking kill several of my family members. I have a family member that smokes 4-5 packs a day at 63 years old. We have all seen it. Then again, if you listen to Lester Roloff you will find that a lot of things we are doing are also killing us. The foods we eat. The drugs we take for sickness. Laziness- lack of "sweating" and the whole nine yards. I guess I'll preach against smoking when I start eating right and working till I'm worthy of a full nights rest. how hypocritical it would be for me to condemn the guy outside the restraunt smoking while I'm sitting down to my 4th plate at the buffet. Finney thought eating pleasant food was a sin. What would he say to some of our pot luck dinners?

sermonindex Jul 12, 2005

Joshua... thank you for your testimony. It hasnt even crossed my mind to confront anyone there about this because thats not my church, I dont know the people, and I'm certainly not in any leadership there. It's not my place. I'm simply an observer. I used to smoke a pack and half of cigarettes a day... so I understand the struggle of giving them up. I gave them up before coming to Christ because I got real serious about fitness and body building... but your testimony is great, and I know many who share the same story.Philologos... you're absolutely right. You cant rush or force revelation. As I mentioned, there are two smokers in our house churches that still smoke... and frankly I leave them alone about it, unless they ask me. The Holy Spirit will work on them.One interesting observation is this... I think this situation says alot about the example a pastor sets. We all tend to justify our behavior when we see a leader doing something. Here is a pastor who uses tobacco... and so you see half a congregation using it. The associate pastor smokes unfiltered camels. I noticed two kids in the youth group smoking. There are ash trays everywhere around the outside of the church, and around the fellowship hall.Again... not judging, just noticing the influence of the leaders. I think thats something we all need to think a little more about.1Co 8:9-13 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.Krispy

sermonindex Jul 12, 2005

Robert... excellent points. I have a hard time listening to a pastor preach who is weighing in at over 300 pounds... and it's not a gland problem... it's a bacon and cheese problem. I'm not saying everyone should be at the gym 5 times a week like I am... but the Bible says a lot about gluttony. When was the last time you heard a sermon on that topic?Krispy

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RobertW Jul 12, 2005

I'm not saying everyone should be at the gym 5 times a week like I amI heard a sermon against this recently also. I wondered, are they saying I can't workout any more? Talked about how people in the gym only do it to look good and impress folk in the flesh. Said were too preoccupied with our appearance. It was inserted into a sermon against plastic surgery. There was some truth to what she was saying (it was a speech actually to a group of Christians). Yet, look at how crazy this can get? I think we may be too preoccupied with other people and need to really just focus on what God is telling us. God never convicted me for working out once He gave it back to me years ago. You simply have to let God be God. Like Ron said- it has to come by revelation. And if I might add- we all won't look the same and have the same personal convictions when its all over.

sermonindex Jul 12, 2005

Speaking only for myself... I was diagnosed with diabetes 5 years ago, even tho I was already in shape. It's a family history thing for me. So thats why I am there 5 times a week. Plus it's a small gym with mostly free weights, no machines... so there arent many women there. It's no meat market type of gym. Since I've been at that gym I've been blessed to lead 4 people (including the owner) to Christ... and we have Bible studies once a week. The now cranks Christian metal music now instead of the trash he used to play.I'm an ex-Marine, and I just love being in shape... and with diabetes, it also ensures that I'll avoid physical ailments later in life.Not defending... just explaining. I know you werent judging me, Robert.Krispy

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RobertW Jul 12, 2005

No judging either way here. I workout and nobody seems to care either way. Something that sticks with me that really bolled me over once. I was in Las Vegas on an annual business trip and attended a store front Church. I could not help but ask why Las Vegas? Why come here to build a ministry? He said, they need Christ just like we do. I then asked- well, what about all the casinos and stuff? He said, there are actually people in this church that work in gaming. I was blown back. I said, what do you do about that? He said, "We allow the Holy Ghost to deal with the people." I wasn't trying to hear that at the time. I was a bit younger and greener. But one thing I must say is that I recognized the presence of God in the house. And when the minister called me out and spoke to a situation I was going through with an unction I laid my judgmentalism down. God is in control and when I get my hands on His work the whole Masterpiece can get messed up. A lot of stuff we emphasize in preaching against in 'our camp' is stuff that you do not find anywhere in the NT except in 'principal.' So called biblical principals get a lot of press. Its convenient because anyone can be God. Anyone can manipulate what they want their brother or sister to quit doing and offer a few proof texts. Oh how desperately we need God to show up!

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GaryE Jul 12, 2005

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.Krispy, you mention that you can't listen to a preacher who has a bacon and cheese problem and not a gland problem. Isn't this maybe the biggest reason that chewing preacher or Christians in general should not smoke? Just as you won't listen to the preacher who is a glutton, people won't listen to preachers or Christians that look to them like they are missing the mark. This in fact keeps many people from ever coming to the Lord.We need to kill the Agag in our lives like Samuel did and not let him survive like Saul did. We need to kill the priests of Baal like Elijah and go into Canaan land and kill all of the enemies of God and his people. When it comes to personal revival or cultural revival, we can be sure we won't get the victory until Achan is dead. All hell comes against a Christian that is trying to get free from tobacco. When Satan comes in like a flood, God is able to put up a standard against him. God's grace isn't just about taking our sins away from us but his grace includes the ability to resist sin. With smoking there is a need to be as a watchman looking for the raving and roaring lion. When the lust spirit of smoking is identified, the person must immediately pray. God’s answer to our prayer will bring the standard that will stop Satan and bring freedom into our lives.It is not God's will for any of us to be in bondage to this world. Addictions including the lust spirits of gambling, sexual sins, drug use, alcoholism are to be broken by the power of God so that God is glorified in our lives. We are more than conquerors through Jesus.It is good to have elders pray for us for deliverance if we are in bondage of some sort, however, it is most important that we call out to God when facing the enemy in a confrontation. Pray. We boldly enter the throne room, with the blood, and present our petitions to the Lord. O’ Lord help me. O’ Lord help me. O’ Lord please help me.In Christ,GaryE

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KingJimmy Jul 12, 2005

The smoking situation is a somewhat touchy subject for me personally. My father works for Phillip Morris, the largest cigarette manufacturer in the world. The plant he works at as an electrician pumps out more cigarettes than any other plant in the world save for one (perhaps now it is the largest since they've expanded). The roof over my head, the food on my table, and the Bible college I graduated from have all been paid for out of his source of income. Not only does my father work for Phillip Morris, but he also is given a free pack a day, though I'm not quite sure how much a day he smokes, though I think it is more than that. Likewise, some of the people at my Church smoke. In fact, a couple months ago we had an old fashioned baptism service, and 2 individuals who were recently converted and being baptized that day could be seen smoking cigarettes outside their car just minutes before they both went under cold "living water." Likewise, back in December I preached a sermon about hungering for more of God, where my girlfriend's brother had a powerful encounter with God. He was horriably addicted to cigarettes. While he was laying on the floor of the altar, God told him to choose cigarettes or God. That day he chose God, and was baptized in the Holy Spirit. From that day, he went cold-turkey and was a totally different person for quite some time. He gave up smoking for 3 months until the day his grandmother died, and when I went to visit the family at the funeral home, as I rolled up to the funeral home, he was outside smoking a cigarette, and you could tell things suddenly changed for him, and he has been on a downward spiral ever since then. It is quite interesting to see how he actively confessed that God told him to stop smoking. Then when he started back up again a couple months later, he would say "he just wasn't ready." Now he says altogether that he doesn't believe it is wrong. Oh, the slippery slope of sin! Shortly after he started smoking again, he was diagnosed with emphizema at the age of 25, and has pretty much given up on living save for the "happiness" smoking a cigarette gives him. The doctor told him that if he keeps it up, he'll probably only live to see 35 at best.Can one be saved and be addicted to cigarettes? I suppose it is like asking if one can serve two masters. Just because Charles Spurgeon smoked cigarettes doesn't make it ok. I know of one state evangelist in my denomination who everybody says was a mighty preacher. He preached, and the power of God would fall, and people would get saved, delivered, filled with the Spirit, etc. Yet eventually a discovery was made about this man- he had a little boy in every town he frequently preached in. I was talking to a good friend of mine recently about this topic of smoking. While I think of it as a sin that doesn't fall under the "weightier matters of the law," I still believe it to be wrong, and any addiction like such would fall under a form of idolatry. We agreed with eachother, and believed that perhaps the only reason it is not as preached against today is because it is so common, and isn't as "icky" of a sin, as all those other people hooked on more "icky" things like alcohol, pot, crack, and the like. Yet sadly, just a week after I had this conversation with my friend, he comes up to me and rather joyfully confesses that he and my other friend went out the night before and "celebrated" with my friend who got married that day (as my friend was in the wedding), by going to smoke cigars. He relished in how great it was, and how he could still feel the cigar sensation in his mouth. My one friend is an elder in his church, and the other a children's pastor. Oh, the slippery slope of sin!2 Kings 17:19,33 deals strongly with the various idolatries the peoples commit. So popular were certain forms of idolatry they were simply called "customs" in these 2 verses. Oh, the slippery slope of sin! Let us not shy away calling something sin if it indeed fits the bill. Even if we can only understand something as a sin through a matter of principle, and have no direct commandment, then we must understand it as such. Is that not what the Lord did though, when he called lusting after women as adultery? Did not the apostles not label the love of money as idolatry? Such is hardly judgmentalism. In fact, it cuts to the heart of the matter, and helps us avoid the error of legalism. If you are geniunely struggling with an addiction, and trying to overcome it, I pray that you would rely on the grace of God to break that addiction. If you are addicted to something, and simply don't care, I pray God would convict you so that you might be presented blameless in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Compton Jul 12, 2005

Pardon me gents. Let me interrupt this thread for a second to make note of something...He preached, and the power of God would fall, and people would get saved, delivered, filled with the Spirit, etc. Yet eventually a discovery was made about this man- he had a little boy in every town he frequently preached in. Just goes to show that we are too easily impressed by the gifts of the Spirit...which are quite separate from the fruit of the Spirit. I always forget that Judas was not just one of the 12 that went out, but that he probably "performed" miracles himself...Sorry for the distraction...MC

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moreofHim Jul 12, 2005

Jimmy, once again you have come up with some incredible insight. What you wrote was very convicting, even to me (even though i don't smoke but do have to watch for other areas of idolatry).Idolatry and spiritual adultery (having other loves) has been an area that the Lord has pressed upon me for a number of years now. You're right we cannot serve two masters. If we can't live without something, may it only be the Lord. In Christ, Chanin

sermonindex Jul 12, 2005

KJ... excellent. In my mind I was trying to piece together why this issue in that church bothered me so. It does indeed come down to idolatry. That is what an addiction is. An addiction is a god... and we shall have no other gods before Him. If someone goes crazy in their mind if they go an hour without a cigarette... but can go days without opening the Word and not be bothered... then it's easy to tell what their god is. That can go for anything.And your right... here in NC especially, attitudes about tobacco are quite different than in other parts of the country.As a side note... Spurgeon did not smoke cigarettes. He smoked cigars, and only occasionally because he understood that addiction is idolatry. Also, he did not inhale... I hate to use something left over from the slick-Willie administration... but apparently this IS true of Spurgeon. He said he didn't inhale because he did not wish to do damage to his lungs. Even 100 years ago he understood that smoking was a health hazard.Krispy

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