Torment...not Pain

Luke 16:23, And being in torments in Hades...
verse 24, Then he cried...for I am tormented in this flame.

When we think of hell, what do we really think?

Do we see it as a few flames burning the unrepentant? Or do we see it as hot as, say, a volcano, with the flesh of the unrepentant being consumed. The flesh falling from them.

I know it is not nice to consider. But it is harsh reality.

To reach the lost, and we must, is not easy. But God said with Him all things are possible.

There is no need to reply. It is just there to make us think.

If there really is a great chasm fixed between heaven and hell, how could Lazarus hear the rich man?

How can those in heaven enjoy their time there if they incessantly hear the pleas and cries of those in torment?

No need to reply- just there to make us think.

Is that all you got?

"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:5

Get that... after He has killed you, then you go to hell. I don't think soul sleep or annihilation is scary to anyone.

My only point is that the story is not literal and has points that cannot be taken literally. It is no more literal that the prodigal son parable.

I think it could very well be literal.

Hi Enid,

Definitely. The Good News of Christ our Saviour must be preached to all nations.

But,

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

WHO was that rich man? Was he a heathen?

Blessings

Hi Nigel,

LUKE 11:37 - 12:12

WHO was Jesus talking to?

WHO was He talking about?

WHAT was He against?

Seems to me, when I read scripture, that Jesus came to save sinners and it is the self-righteous who will go to "hell".
Then, what really is "hell" and "fire"?? Is what that is commonly taught correctly taught? And of course those who condemn others to "hell" are sure they themselves will not go there. But it is not man himself but Jesus who is the Judge and "there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known".

Blessings

Hi Jade. It seems clear to me, from these passages of scripture and many others, that hell is a place of eternal separation from God, a place of fire and brimstone, of eternal torment, the people there knowing that they rejected every offer of mercy and forgiveness and did abominable sins against God their whole lives.

It takes deliberate ignorance and twisting of very obvious scriptures to deny the stark, terrifying reality of hell. (And saying that I am not insulting anyone who holds a different viewpoint.)

I know I will not go there because 1. I trust God's promises to me and, 2. I know Jesus and have the witness of the Holy Spirit that I am a child of God.

I think everyone here (including me) should pray for a fresh vision of how exceedingly sinful sin really is, how offensive and hurtful it is to a holy God. People deserve much worse than hell for what they have done.

99% burning in torment for all eternity
1% escape

That doesn’t sound much like a head-crushing to me.

With those numbers there appears to be a clear winner for the ages but no one wants to admit who it is.

It amazes me how few people stop to really consider what their views say (slander) about God.

Let’s think about this succinctly: God knew man would sin before he was created; he knew in advance that everyone would sin but He created them anyway; he knew that a huge majority would never have a realistic chance of responding to the gospel, and that an exceedingly small percentage of those who do hear would respond favorably, yet He created a special place of never ending torture for the vast majority of his creation that He knew in advance would have to go there because of the system HE created.

That, my friends, is insanity, and, if true, means God is decidedly not good.

So perhaps we need to think more carefully about what we have always accepted as true.

Dear brother,
Not sure what’s going on but,...
let’s take these 1 by 1 -

You wrote; " he knew in advance that everyone would sin but He created them anyway”
" he knew that a huge majority would never have a realistic chance of responding to the gospel,”
" and that an exceedingly small percentage of those who do hear would respond favorably, yet He created a special place of never ending torture for the vast majority of his creation that He knew in advance would have to go there because of the system HE created.”

You then, rightly, state that would be a form of insanity IF it were true....

So may I ask you dear brother to provide scriptures for the three above presuppositions quotes above?
That would provide a basis for us to discuss the facts without all the emotional conjecture:)

You don’t really need the fluff- all that’s needed is the premise that 1) God created the system (if not Him, then who?), and the premise 2) that He created a place of eternal torture to house those who failed in the system He created. Regardless what percentage you think is accurate, I think the consensus would be that far far far more people fail than not in this system.

I don’t have a problem at all with premise 1- it’s premise 2 that gives me pause. Why it doesn’t give everybody pause is beyond me.

Hi Todd. Just a query. Do you have problem with the premise that God creatied a hell to send Satan and the fallen angels to?

Todd, no offense but it's pretty easy to poke holes in your argument.

Read Romans 1. People know instinctively and from their God given conscience that there is a God. They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. The whole world is in darkness and rebellion against God; they aren't people who have made a few mistakes but are basically good, and are sent to hell by a bloodthirsty, tyrannical God.

God has given people free will, and if the majority of the human race stubbornly refuse to give up their sin and choose to go to hell, God has to let them.

I recommend you listen to Ten Shekels And A Shirt by Paris Reidhead. "It wasn't trying to convince good man that he was in trouble with a bad God; it was to convince bad men that they deserved the wrath and anger of a good God."

Read these words directly from the mouth of Jesus: "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." Luke 13:23,24

You wrote; " You don’t really need the fluff- all that’s needed is the premise”

Are you suggesting that the scriptures themselves as a basis is "fluff”???
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your words? But it seems you begin with a premise that may not have a firm footing in the scriptures themselves.

It’s clear from your posts over the years that you’re view of this topic is somewhat nuanced in that it isn’t a "traditional” position but it seems for some reason now there is a hostility, even a contemptuous position of intolerance for what the scriptures clearly and plainly state.... Our unwillingness to accept them doesn’t negate the them or the position they present.

Might I ask if there is a personal reason you reject this doctrine? Perhaps like Francis Chan, someone close to you whom you loved and was a "good” person died apart from Christ? And it just doesn’t seem fair or just?

No Fletcher- my position has not changed at all. My official position is that I do not know what the final fate of the wicked is. I believe there are 3 positions that can be amply supported by scripture if they are given honest consideration. The vast majority of evangelical Christians refuse to give honest consideration to two of these possibilities but fall all over the third. And when I say "honest consideration” I don’t mean reading a proponent of one view tearing apart the others. You have to read the best defenses of each position from respectable persons who hold them. I have certainly done so which is why I can honestly say that I do not know which view is correct.

I am not hostile toward any scripture, but perhaps as I grow older I do get impatient with those who say they love God with all their hearts but are so willing to lay the most horrible and monstrous things at His doorstep without a second thought. I suspect one day people will hear from the Lord: "How could you have thought that about Me?” That being said, I may hear: "How could you not have believed that about Me?” Of course I think that is much less likely 🙂

Todd. Ito suggest that the " 3rfd view” is monstrous, insane and represents an evil God is not an "I don’t know” attitude and is more than mere impatience. with those who hold to it. Finally, if the 3rd view is true, saying those things aboht God is "problematic”.

Fair enough- and that’s an understandable position.
But isn’t it a measure of maturity to allow others to express and discuss their understanding of scripture and or doctrine without being swiped at? Especially so long as they’re not "teaching error” and are expressing a heart of humility to reach the lost?
Idk bro, it seems to me that we should do as Paul says and "strive to maintain unity” and not squabble over things that again, wether we agree with their conclusions or not, are pretty consistent in the scriptures.

I mean it’s pretty hard to argue with passages like, "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men” and "how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation” and "if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the sinner and ungodly appear” just to name a few of the new covenant passages that seem to clearly express there is a severity to Gods wrath that is, according to scripture, impartial and without respect of persons.

Regarding sister Enid’s initial post, (in my understanding) if Lord Jesus uses actual peoples names then it’s a historical event and not a figurative parable... as in this case He was siting an actual scenario that happened-

Regarding the "premises” you sited,... honestly I think we all eventually get confronted by these types of questions especially relating to these most serious and sobering subjects found in our faith... resulting, in many cases, with us coming to very different conclusions. In many cases these conclusions are being informed more by our experience and culture rather than the Spirit of truth. When I searched the scriptures as to how to responsibly handle this fact it was very clear- approach the subject and brethren with all meekness and humility. I can’t say sister Enid is right or wrong in her understanding of this subject but it seems apparent that her heart has been pricked by her understanding of this subject and this has resulted in her having a desire to reach the lost.... and that looks like how the Jesus that saved me works in the hearts of those whom He has already redeemed and are being saved🙏🏻

In any case, tho we may have different understanding of this doctrine, I love you and am grateful for how God has used you to help me in my walk over the years cause you might be surprised how big of an influence you’ve been in my life <