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Any tips? Wolfs in Sheep Clothing

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

Now, ive asked my pastor, and a guest at my church. "Who do you know that major on this topic 'exposing wolfs that are in sheeps clothing'?" He replied Derek Prince, yet im to find one great thing from hin on this topic, maybe im just not a good researcher (ah...college soon, i hope thats not true).I've seen some different sites on this topic, but NO ONE that i've seen DOES IT.I've had an encounter with the "famous" Rodney Howard-Browne and he lives in my area. 'Tampa Bay area'. He comes to my city once a month now..(3rd month this month..ekk).My spirit did turns, other seekers of God that i KNEW PERSONALLY felt a little uneasy about it. They were 'pushed over', 'no solid testimonies on healings' etc..I wanted to shout, cry, scream, and just say 'Lord, why wont you burn this man?'. I know, i know what the Lord said to His disciples... But i never really prayed this. It was just how i felt. My heart was yurning...it was crying..i wanted to just weap....to hear such a person to try to deceive God's people.....oh my!I never grew up in the Pentacostal circles....i grew up baptist, but tested everything. I never thought 'wolfs' would really live so close to me. I wanted to TRULY WEAP...you have no idea, even now it breaks my heart........it ...ugh..All in all, after this, holy anger raged in me, it was Holy. We asked the Lord to truly save those who needed to hear His voice, cause HIS WORD DOESNT RETURN VOID. No matter who plants the seed.Me and my friend got in trouble for 'laying hands on someone' when anyone in any church would say 'that person is just praying for them with their hand on her arm'. SHE ASKED US TO PRAY, SHE WAS IN A WHEELCHAIR, ASKING FOR A MIRACLE. HOW DOES THAT BREAK YOUR HEART! It breaks mine. Then latter to get rebuke by the 'leaders' of Browne's ministry.Browne is false, i dont care what you think, let God break away those WICKED SCALES. You have to be really in satan's domain to receive such lies.Again, Who majors on such tings? Exposing Wolfs in sheeps clothing... id like some audio and video, and worthly articles and such..plz

J
jeremyhulsey Jul 13, 2005

Look for these sermons in the download section:Carter Conlon:WolvesMinisters of LaciviousnessWhen Liars Stand Before God's ThroneRun For Your LifeDangerous ShepherdsA Heap Of Frogs And A Stinking LandDavid Wilkerson:The Reproach Of The Solemn AssemblyGod Is Training A Holy RemnantThe Famine Has BegunA Reproach Among the HeathenWinning ChristAnother Gospel

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

You have no idea, how much of help that was!!

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

anymore....im not closing the book on this...

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Jul 13, 2005

Hey Yeshua...I've had an encounter with Rodney Howard Browne (as well as with a counterpart of his, Chris Harvey). I attended a "crusade" starring Rodney Howard Browne, and my heart ached because of the blatantly false displays -- and the accusation that much of these displays were "the work of the Holy Spirit." I felt so incredibly grieved inside of me! A few months later, Chris Harvey (a lesser known "evangelist" who claims to have traveled with Rodney Howard Browne and who also claims to "carry the same annointing") traveled to the church that I attended at the time. The services were nearly identical to those of Rodney Howard Browne. The services began with each man telling everyone what was "about to happen" by using anecdotes of his previous meetings' events. They tell the congregation that "entire" congregations of those churches "fall under the power of uncontrollable holy laughter." Then, as the service progresses, the man prays for each willing member of the congregation -- waiting until they begin to laugh uncontrollably. While praying, he constantly tells them "not to worry about reputation because that will hinder the Holy Spirit's move in your life" while also warning the member, "don't fight against God." Talk about soulish peer-pressure! Most people eventually fell down and laughed uncontrollably, but many later admitted that they did it because they felt pressured to.What strikes me as characteristic of nearly all of these "holy laughter" (or gold-filling, gold-dust, stretched-leg, frozen-believer) type of "ministries" is the emphasis on the physical results or manifestations -- and almost never on the work of God in the hearts of either believers or unbelievers. Sure, they end up pointing out the small amount of people who ever-so-often are amazed at such events and who seem nearly afraid of what they have seen (but have not experienced) and seem to eagerly repent. But almost all of the time in the services is spent "enjoying the manifestations of the Holy Spirit." There is hardly any preaching. There is hardly any intimate worship. And worse of all, there is hardly any Word of God (other than a few Scriptures that are taken out of context). It almost seems that the congregation totally neglects Christ in favor of what they perceive as the physical works of the Holy Spirit.Can God do the things that these men point as a work of the Spirit? God can do anything! But there are some things that God will not do -- because it is against his very nature as made clear by his Word. We can only test such things through the Word of God, and not by the experiences of man. God can and does miracles -- but God will not surrender any of his glory to men. I attended those services, as I attend all services, without any preconceived ideas about either men. That is perhaps why I felt so heartbroken. I didn't judge whether or not these men were intentionally preaching and teaching such false doctrines. It might be entirely possible that they are doing it believing that they are doing a work for God. But irregardless of the motivations of these men, the Word is entirely clear that these men are not preaching the Truth. Thus, the greatest book concerning whether or not any doctrine is true or false is, of course, the Word of God. But what about wolves?It is so difficult to know whether or not such men are truly wolves. Like I said, it is entirely possible that some preachers truly believe what they are teaching. But does that make them a wolf? The Word is clear that while we cannot judge the heart or intentions of man, we can "know a tree by the fruit it bears." Do such meetings, preachings or teachings turn men away from Christ? Are believers devoured by Satan through such men or meetings? As a young believer, I was scourned by some of my elders for not unconditionally accepting so much of what was preached, taught or accepted by the leaders or guests in our church. They accused me of having "seeds of doubt" which could "hinder God's will for my life." As an eager and totally sincere young Christian, I cried out to the Lord for help. I didn't want to be "judgmental," yet I didn't want to accept or believe something contrary to God's Word just because I was told that I needed to. I was encouraged through the verse that implores us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I am under the impression that the best method is to believe nothing but the Word. We must test everything (I Thessalonians 5) by God's Word (like the Bereans in Acts 17) in order to know the certainty of our beliefs. It is true that God has given us pastors, teachers, and other leaders who are there to "equip the saints," but it is also true that these are still just men. It is so encouraging that most of our Bible heroes were so utterly flawed! They made mistakes in action and judgment that still makes believers today shutter. In fact, it seems that the "greater" a man or woman was used by God -- the greater the flaw they displayed! If men like David, Saul, Samson, Noah, Solomon, Abraham, Moses, etc... made such mistakes -- then we must realize that we can not trust any preacher or teacher totally -- no matter how pious or sincere! Remember, a man can be sincere, but he can also be sincerely wrong. I agree with the messages that were mentioned (from Carter Conlon and David Wilkerson) that speak about wolves. There are truly wolves who "prowl" about for self-glory and physical gain (and even those who desire to do damage to the Church). But such men and teachings are no match for a believer who has placed his faith completely in Christ -- and in Christ alone! In my opinion, this should be taught to even the youngest of believers. This understanding has helped me greatly in the last few years. I was greatly disappointed by a pastor who "heard God" tell him things that God obviously did not tell him. Later, I learned that this man was actually "casting lots" in his office during prayer time. He would write different messages on paper, then crumble them up, shuffle them, and then spread them out on his desk. He would then ask God to lead him to the right paper wad. When I confronted him about it, he defended such actions by saying that he was just doing the same thing that Gideon did. I told him that Gideon did not cast lots -- but laid a fleece before the Lord, asking God to do the impossible! I told him that even after the impossible was accomplished -- Gideon still did not believe! So he asked God to do the impossible a second time. Afterward, Gideon accepted what was already told to him! "Throwing paper wads or lots," I told him, "is no different than using an 8-ball found in the toy section of Wal-Mart." Besides, I told him that after the Church was filled with the Holy Spirit, they no longer cast lots. Why? Because now they had a "sure word" from the Lord. As much as I enjoy messages from this website from men like Leonard Ravenhill, David Wilkerson, A. W. Tozer, etc... -- I still believe that the Lord desires for us to always test everything. These men of God are still men -- and they are fallible. Anyway, I imagine that you probably already know this. I might just be reinforcing my own thoughts on the matter. I will be praying for you, that the Lord gives you wisdom and discernment though all things. Please do the same for me! :-) -ChrisJeremiah 29:11-13

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

In Neil's thread (on not being negative), he posts something from another website (p5) which quotes Discernment Ministries International. Here's a page of links http://www.emnr.org/links.html, though he quotes from a different site, to do with Olsteen.ccchhhrrriiisss,Thanks for your testimony. Many things ring bells, but, I now see the 'minister' of whom I'm thinking, was small fry compared with these guys who make a lifestyle out of misleading large gatherings. I believe they are wolves in sheep's clothing, even though you may have no evidence about other activities which could convince you. One thinks of some of Peter's comments in his second epistle.

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

"Wolves in Sheep's Clothing" articleIt doesn't name names, but it scripturally outlines a false teachers characteristics. Because it's long it may be best to print off. I hope it helps.

T
todd Jul 13, 2005

Chris, As you mention, we are told to test everything.You wrote:"Most people eventually fell down and laughed uncontrollably, but many later admitted that they did it because they felt pressured to."Were these people in your church? Did they admit this in front of the church? Is there any way to contact them?

T
todd Jul 13, 2005

Yesh, Back to your original post:"Now, ive asked my pastor, and a guest at my church. "Who do you know that major on this topic 'exposing wolfs that are in sheeps clothing'?" He replied Derek Prince, yet im to find one great thing from hin on this topic, maybe im just not a good researcher..."I am somewhat familiar with Derek Prince's ministry and I am confidant that he does not major on this topic. Perhaps he has good teaching on it, but from what I've seen, he's far from majoring on it. Do you really think anyone is called to major on this topic?

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

Y'all are naming names... I cant believe it. This thread is mean spirited and judgemental. How dare you! You should all be ashamed of yourselves!(Note: Tongue planted firmly in cheek)Krispy

A
aeryck Jul 13, 2005

Todd,I agree Derek was a really wonderful human, I have a tape where he was preaching in New Zealand where he began weeping over them. Derek was extremly positive, and would rather teach about a problem and then invest much time in dealing with a solution. I have a huge library of his books and tapes and Cd's, and so far I have found he talks about a general problem and avoids the names, concentrating on providing scriptural solutions.He said something quite funny once. 'Often those who talk most about grace, know very little about it.'I learned the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, from his notes in 1977. This really helped me to identify a false cult very quickly.When you have the blue print it is easy to notice a fake.Even on one occassion he mentioned Willian Marion Brahnam. Now even though WMB is 'Jesus only' all Derek said was, he was amazed at the way William stood praying for hours for thousands of sick people. He even debated Chuck Missler and humbly acknowledged Missler's views on the Rapture.I think what has marked Derek's ministry was his humble spirit in God. At 83, he felt there were things in his life that need tending and drew aside to pray and seek the Lord for 2 weeks.In Jesus,Triangulation.ps. hope I did not punch this section too hard. Seems there is a light hearted spirit hear, right?:-P

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

ccchhhrrriiisss Your quote about 'not knowing a wolf in sheeps clothing' Honestly, those that you mentioned are, they are either wolfs/goats or sheep. Rodney is truly a wolf, maybe he once 'tasted the divine nature', i dont know, i read one of his books 'The Touch of God' (This is truly what i believe, what he (rodney) wrote in this book). I believe the book was right on the money, has he changed? maybe, maybe not i dont know. All i know is the present. He is not teaching the word of God, but doctrines of DEMONS! Not even of man, DEMONS I SAY.I love Rodney, just as i love a homosexual, Adolf Hitler, and a homeless man on the street. But if ANYONE preaches in the name of Christ, and fails the test and isn't willing to come forward with open arms saying 'Sorry folks, etc..etc..' or 'Here are all the accounts i have of healings and truth...' Then that man is hiding something. Did any man/women of God hide something? I doubt it.This is part, that i believe is PART of the Great Delusion, and the other part is the pre trib rapture (lets keep this outta this thread, cause its not part of this topic).I don't believe your pastor is ALL (maybe some, but not all) wrong on his situation with 'casting lots' the apostles did, maybe they drawed straws as one pastor put it, or maybe they did what your pastor did.I think either your pastor is just desperate for a true genuine touch of God. To hear His voice. But i dont believe its wrong to 'cast lots' when the motives are correct.ToddI do believe someone is probly called to 'major' on this topic. Why? cause there are different parts of the body and different funtions.Krispy KrittrJudging isn't bad. Mean spirited? Actually, im truly learning alot. That's fruit in my life. Judgemental? Well, Jesus never said 'Judging is bad' instead 'you will be judged in the same manner'. And hey, i dont think anyone here minds being judged in the same manner we are judging others.Lots of money, covetess motives....worshipping the gift and not the giver. If im classified as these, then i will truly be under judgement by the people and the Lord.Also, the bible says to 'mark the false ones and stay away from them'. (thats a paraphrase..of i think two different scriptures)So, i believe there is tremendous fruit coming from this conversation. And it has truly lifted me up. Any more comments folks?

sermonindex Jul 13, 2005

aerky, can you name some of Derek's stuff on 'marking a cult' or something of that nature?? so that in the future i maybe able to buy it...and dwell on these things..

C
ccchhhrrriiisss Jul 13, 2005

Hi Todd...Yes, this happened in a church that I used to attend. Those who quietly professed "faking" their holy laughter didn't admit this is front of the entire congregation -- because this rather large Church still stands behind these men (as well as some other extremely controversial guest ministers). The "holy laughter" movement in this particular church lasted for several years, and still exists in a somewhat more subdued version. Usually, it occurs within a particular small group of ladies in the congregation, who begin laughing uncontrollably during the sermon. For the first six months or so, the Pastor and some leaders in the Church loved it! However, after a while, it became very disruptive. For a while, it seemed that the ushers were forced to carry out the same ladies nearly every service to prevent further disruption of the service. However, the women would be carried to a room in the building where they were permitted to laugh and roll on the floor all they wanted. Eventually, other guest speakers commented negatively about such disruptions, but it still continued. A couple of times, some guest speakers were forced to ask some of the "Holy Ghost drunks" (as they became known) to be quiet during some services. The senior pastor was perplexed, because many people in the congregation grew impatient about the entire notion. He eventually had to say something from the pulpit, telling people that while he totally believes in "holy laughter," that it should happen with "decency and order" and not to take preeminence over the service every week. According to friends of mine that still attend the church, those same ladies experience "holy laughter" manifestations at least twice a month on Sunday mornings. While the pastor still defends it and vigorously forbids people from questioning the manifestations (or his leadership in allowing such things), the movement is hardly mentioned anymore. For a while, the church experimented with television, and the main TV ministry guy told me that he was told to not film the manifestation, and to edit out any inadvertant displays. Most of the people who spoke about having "faked" the manifestation still attend the church. I no longer attend that church, but I remain in contact with several of them. If you would like, I could ask them to contact you. I have asked some of them why they faked the manifestation, but most of them really don't have an answer. Some told me that they felt pressured to, while others didn't want to feel like they were unspiritual for not falling down, laughing, etc... (since so many others were doing the same). I have often wondered why people feel the need to do that in many of today's modern charasmatic churches. I've watched Christian TV shows where thousands did this at the same time. I've even attended services where people experienced holy laughter, only to get up a couple of minutes later and invite me to eat (and even to watch a movie after the service). Like I said in my first post, I don't want to appear judgmental. I have seen some amazing things. And nothing changes the fact that God can do abundantly more than we ask or think. But as I said before, there are some things that God will not do because it is against his character (as found in the Word). Again, I have seen some awesome things that God has done since becoming a christian. But I have also seen some things that were attributed to God that contradicts his Word. Anyway, PM me if you would like for me to place you in contact with some of these. :-) -ChrisJeremiah 29:11-13todd wrote:You wrote:"Most people eventually fell down and laughed uncontrollably, but many later admitted that they did it because they felt pressured to."Were these people in your church? Did they admit this in front of the church? Is there any way to contact them?

A
aeryck Jul 13, 2005

Todd,Sound teaching is often the secret to dealing with the type of things I see mentioned on this thread, nothing that a little water of the Word won't do to cool of fakes.Paul, does clearly outline correct order in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Laughter is not out of order, as is crying. I remember once listening to a woman sobbing gently in the Holy Spirit, it touched me so deeply that I began crying too, I just realized at that moment that Jesus was weeping through her. Wow, where did that come from.In Jesus,.A.:-P ps. I will certainly let you know as soon as I remember. 'Blessing or Curse'- You can choose, is the only one that comes to mind, and another where he dealt with a 'bewitched' church, I think it was his teaching on the book of Galatians. His tape library is extensive. I mean literally thousands of hours of ministry. I prefer Chuck Missler when I am not reading Paul...loladd-Come to think of it the real boffin in exposing cults is Dr Walter Martin, and Al Dager. More recently is a guy called Warren Smith, not to be confused with Rick Warren. Dr Walter Martin is really thorough. Whew, he sweeps clean. He has a two books, Kingdom of the Cults and Kingdom of the Occult. Pricey but worth it, I believe recommended reading for some colleges. Chuck Missler actually toured with the late Doctor. He was amazed at the mans commitment to caring for people who were troubled.Often the best way of examining a cult is to look for testimonies of poeple who have been involved, I was more moved by the testimonies of ex jehovah's witnesses than anything I have ever read in the manuals about the cults, it also gave me a proper understanding. I now cannot wait to hear the knock on my door and make them tea and love them as much as I know how in the Lord. They live lives of such terrible fear. I had no idea till I listened to a testimony. Mp3 audios are so cool... :-P try http://www.waltermartin.org

sermonindex Jul 14, 2005

Here is a personal question for all of you.Does it break your heart when you see, hear, and experience false manifestations and teachings? Does it break your heart when someone walks away when someone is NOT healed? I wanna weap for hours. God has been breaking me resently. I've heard many different prophetic words...and such, but still waiting on the Lord. When God opens the door (for TIME, cause right now salvation of the youth is my #1 priority) i will be running thru it.It truly breaks my heart, to see people down the street, in pain, to see people in schools hurting in their souls, to see them dead spiritual.It hurts, its something i truly would ask Christ for more of, is compassion.So again, my question.Does it break your heart when you see, hear, and experience false manifestations and teachings? Does it break your heart when someone walks away when someone is NOT healed?

J
jeremyhulsey Jul 14, 2005

Does it break your heart when you see, hear, and experience false manifestations and teachings? Does it break your heart when someone walks away when someone is NOT healed?It breaks my heart when someone who is not physically healed thinks it's that way because their faith is lacking somewhere.

sermonindex Jul 14, 2005

Krispy KrittrJudging isn't bad. Mean spirited? Actually, im truly learning alot. That's fruit in my life. Judgemental? Well, Jesus never said 'Judging is bad' instead 'you will be judged in the same manner'. And hey, i dont think anyone here minds being judged in the same manner we are judging others.Lots of money, covetess motives....worshipping the gift and not the giver. If im classified as these, then i will truly be under judgement by the people and the Lord.Also, the bible says to 'mark the false ones and stay away from them'. (thats a paraphrase..of i think two different scriptures)Ahhh... young Jedi... you must be new here!When someone uses the expression "tongue in cheek" they mean that what they said was not meant to be taken seriously. I have oft times come on this site and warned of a doctrine or teacher... and I get called names and my motivations and heart get judged by those who say I am judgemental... you should go back thru the archives here and you will see that you misunderstood my earlier post on this thread.I have merely stayed on the side lines on this topic because you're all handling it quite well... and it should be obvious to anyone with even a minimal amount of familiarity with the Bible that Rodney Howard-Brown is a false teacher on par with Benny Hinn.Krispy

sermonindex Jul 14, 2005

Let me also clarify that at times my words about false teachers have been perceived as harsh... and at times I have to admit that they have been. And some here have challenged me on that, and they are correct to do so. It's not in my heart to be harsh, but sometimes I need to choose my words more wisely. I am learning to season my words with more grace.What I reject is the notion that we should overlook error in the name of unity. Jesus never taught this... and Paul certainly did not. We can never have unity with untruth. Unity based on tolerance of error is not biblical unity... it is, according to scripture, partaking in the the error.Exposing error, and warning of it with a godly attitude, is love.Krispy

T
todd Jul 14, 2005

Here's the thing I've noticed with all of this. Many people sincerely think they are exposing error but really they are just spreading unsubstantiated and speculative junk based on thier interpretation of the Bible, false assumptions, and overgeneralizations. I think that every single time I've looked deeper into some of these things, that I've tried to actually get to the root source, I've come away with a very different understanding of the situation. Either I totally disagree with the "error-finders" assessment of the situation, or I see it is a very different light than they expressed it. I'm not saying that none of these folks have ever made a real mistake or that all their doctrine is flawless. But I've noticed people are far too ready to jump to conclusions, especially when they already have a major bias. But in most cases I've found that there is very little actual proof of error. It takes time and patience to really assess these kinds of things.

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