United States of America in end time prophecy

Genesis 12:3 states that all nations are viewed with favor or impending judgement with regard to how each individual nation treats the small select nation of Israel. Israel was eternally tied into an international testimony of God's providence and omnipotence when Abraham entered into an eternal covenant with God.

3. Since there is no fifth kingdom, it is probable that America is viewed by God simply as an extension of the Roman Empire. Rome had extended its empire to England before the time of Christ.To view America as an extension of England is an interesting concept. Didn't you folk have a war about this? ;-)

America will doubtless be included in the end times Babylon religious and economic system Krispy, I suspect that this belief doesn't make you popular. I've heard some say that America will avert judgment because in the coming revival everyone will get saved because America is protecting Israel. Apparently God revealed this to several prophets. I've also heard that Americans (and I assume Canadians) come from the Lost ten tribes of Israel - via British Israelites. That can be handy doctrine is one believes, like the Jews did in the Bible, that because they were God's special chosen, their status with him was secure. That made it hard for them to see their need for Christ. Even Paul did not hide behind his racial identity as a means of spiritual security. I think Paul straightens that out the faulty thinking in Romans 2:28 ".. a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly" "There is neither Jew nor Greek... you are all one in Christ." Gal. 3:28 From what I understand in Scripture in the end there will be two main groups - the wheat and the tares. I think that if we stick to the obvious in Scripture, we won't come up with distorted notions that come out of man's wishful thinking. [PS I find it somewhat interesting that my ancestory (Dutch) supposedly descended from one of the tribes - Zebulun - Gen. 49:13] Could that thought tempt we Dutch to think we are better than others? Maybe it's best that we can't know for sure.

roadsign wrote:If we stick to the obvious teachings in Scripture, we won't come up with distorted notions that come out of man's wishful thinking. Yea, but then we would have no disagreements here and that would be no fun. :-P

Yea, but then we would have no disagreements here and that would be no funTee hee, hee, I can be such a wet blanket, can't I. Diane

Since there is no fifth kingdom, it is probable that America is viewed by God simply as an extension of the Roman Empire. Rome had extended its empire to England before the time of Christ.The other possibility is that we are completely wrong about the end times. Our world just doesn’t fit our end times template like we say it does. Growing up as an evangelical fundamentalist kid, I'm alittle irked that I was taught that the US would have to suddenly vanish through some type of disaster so that the "generation that saw Israel come to pass" could be raptured on schedule. It wasn't untill I was an adult that I realized that our end times script owes a great deal to imagination. We glue scriptures together like quatrains from Nostradamus, and then teach our American children that it's a fact that their nation will be toppled by the time they grow up. (Afterall, as we all know, the rapture’s going to happen in our lifetime and America is not mentioned in scripture and…)I remember hearing Hal Lindsey's statistics of Soviet military might being seamlessly woven into sermons from the pulpilt of Thomas Road Baptist church. We bible belters didn't think twice about translating Magog into Moscow, anymore then we translate King James into contemporary english. Now I question much of this stuff. What if our modern end times fascination is nothing more then a high-strung distraction from real Christianity, not to mention the source of countless fearful urban myths? So many from our evangelical tribes are smitten with primitive folklore about global conspiracies and Christian concentration camps. It’s not that I’m optimistic about the future…just less certain. I’m not a preterist or a post miller…I just wonder if these prophecies are describing the future…not the present.Could it be that the nation state/corporate entity that was recognized by the UN as Israel is not yet the "Nation of Israel"? Could we accept that the EU, now having a greater then 10 membership, may not be the "revived roman empire"? (If anything, Washington DC acts more like Rome then Rome does...)These are just my opinions of course. Who knows? World War III could start next week. Or the current age could be here another 500 years.Here we are today in the so-called "post-modern" age. The most surprising thing about the post modernity is that it happened. I was raised with the belief that the 21st century was a biblical impossibility. How about the 22nd century…is it an impossibility?MC

Could it be that the nation state/corporate entity that was recognized by the UN as Israel is not yet the "Nation of Israel"?mm? sounds like we may have the same working hypothesis. To every scenario I have so far examined my verdict is 'not convinced'.

Could it be that the nation state/corporate entity that was recognized by the UN as Israel is not yet the "Nation of Israel"?I think the line you're following here is from the illustration that Jesus gave of the fig tree in the Olivet Discourse.Mat 24:32-33 KJVR Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: (33) So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.I don't think that the context here can support that Israel is represented by the fig tree in this parable here. Instead Jesus is giving an illustration of the swiftness of the Great Tribulation once it begins to happen. In the Middle East, once a fig tree buds, you know that Summer is right around the corner. So likewise, when all the events that Jesus previously described before v32 begin to take place they will happen very fast, so fast that Jesus said in verse 34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."When will this all happen He did not say, only that it could happen at any time. Certainly "all these things" have not begun to take place. But we are 2000 years closer to it than when the Church began.

I don't think that the context here can support that Israel is represented by the fig tree in this parable here. Instead Jesus is giving an illustration of the swiftness of the Great Tribulation once it begins to happen. I find it interesting that Luke's account looks wider than just the fig tree.Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; I wonder if anyone can find out how many nation states have come into existence in the last 50 years? I think we will be surprised.

I think the line you're following here is from the illustration that Jesus gave of the fig tree in the Olivet Discourse.Yes. I was not referring to my own conclusion, but one that I have heard drawn often...namely that the generation that sees Israel "reborn" as a nation will see the tribulation. I don't think that the context here can support that Israel is represented by the fig tree in this parable here.I agree, but this is, or at least was, a popular idea nonetheless!...my verdict is 'not convinced'.That's pretty much sums up my position. I don't have a real good alternative idea...just that I am bearish on investing too much certainty that the current political nation of Israel (as it stands) is a fulfillment of the prophetic nation of Israel. Is it fair to say that God might recognize and define Israel much differently then by geographical or political structures? For instance, is it possible that God recognized the nation of Israel, through her people, before they were a nation (Egypt), and while they were captive in Babylon? If so, a working human government seems irrelevant to God's recognition, (and government) of Israel. ("...the government shall be upon His shoulder..." ) I'm just wondering out loud.I wonder if anyone can find out how many nation states have come into existence in the last 50 years? I think we will be surprised.I couldn't find information regarding the past 50 years but there have been 30 new countries formed in the past 15 years.30 new countries since 1990MC

Is it fair to say that God might recognize and define Israel much differently then by geographical or political structures?I would agree. The Jews failed to understand that Jesus did not come to establish an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly kingdom, with him ruling in their hearts (government) I think many today suffer from the same type of finite, unspiritual thinking. They don't understand spiritual realities or recognize them for what they are. They are blind like the Jews were. So it's not surprising that the same interpretations of prophetic scriptures resurface. Christians are looking for the sign of an earthly kingdom, Israel, just like the Jews did. Back then they missed the Messiah as a result, and many modern day Christians can't see the present formation of the Kingdom of God ruled by the Messiah through the Spirit. I once did a word study on the Kingdom of God (Heaven) and was very, very surprised at what I discovered. The prophets typically used language and pictures from the day so that people could understnad. And maybe they themselves didn't fully understand what they were writing about. Why wouldn't they give the future church the label of "Israel" That's how they viewed a nation of God's people. And that is what the Church really is. I suspect that a lot of references to a coming nation of Israel refer to the Church - the New Jerusalem - an eternal organism. But by saying that, I risk being accused of spiritualizing. Correct me if I'm wrong. Diane

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; I wonder if anyone can find out how many nation states have come into existence in the last 50 years? I think we will be surprised.This is actually the opposite of what I was trying to say. I don't think Jesus was referring to any nations coming into existence from the parable of the fig tree. Although I do believe the existance of Israel is important. I believe what He was saying was that as they knew summer was near when a fig tree buds, the generation that sees the beginning of the Tribulation will not pass away entirely until the end of it.