Honor Veterans/Military?

Hi, I'm a Veteran, and was thinking lately being Christian should I honor veterans/military, or be ashamed..I think the latter because my convictions are military has no place in the new testament church, right? So churches that honor veterans are basically giving their consent to an organization that's sole focus is to kill people or protect (but still killing) in the name of freedom or whatever, but aren't we Christian's first and country second? Yes, we leave our citenzenship at the cross. No excuses from the OT either, this is NT I'm talking about, where Jesus turned the other cheek and taught us to love our enemies! Can you picture Jesus or His disciples with a machine gun? Never! Amen.

Wesley

Brother,

if a Christian for conscience sake does not go into the military, that is one thing, but not to honor our veterans is an entirely different matter.

Do you believe that we should have stayed out of WW2 and allowed Hitler to take over the world?

Should Israel lay down their arms and be taken over by Muslim nations.

I praise God for every veteran that has laid their lives on the line to defend our nation, and the nation’s Of the world.

Sent from my iPhone

Where would we be if if Nazi fascism and Japanese imperialism had not been actively resisted? South Vietnam begged for help because of what a take over by North Korean communists would entail. Well, they took over and 2,000,000 people were eliminated. Should these type of things be resisted?

There is no way out of it.

We all live our lives based on the sacrifices of others.

There is not a single area of life where someone who has gone before us did not sacrifice, suffer, endure hardship in some form in order to achieve something good...and we are the direct beneficiaries of it.

We all live by anothers leave.

If your convictions restrict you from making hard decisions with powerful ramifications that you in all other circumstances would not make or do...you still owe a debt of thanks to those who did do what you would not do or could not do.

A man who will not defend his own neighbor from murder or some other hateful crime cannot be said in any form to have 'loved' his neighbor. That man must depend upon others that will hazard themselves and all that they have in order to preserve the lives of others.

This discussion forum itself is a testimony to the benefits that others in history long past and history of a few years have been granted us...because someone else viewed the world we live in as more than simply a 'narrow gate' and now that they are saved...to hell with everyone else theyre ok.

No, they forfeited their time and money, their health and their lives for an opportunity for their children and their neighbors to live in peace without being oppressed and imprisoned.

Christianity is not "all about me and my salvation", that kind of Christianity is for the foolish. Christianity is about Jesus living out his life through us.

He lives through us sacrificially, with a willingness to suffer, endure hardness, persecution, poverty, nakedness, peril...because God is glorified in our willingness to go where Jesus sends us.

God sends men to war...this is so abundantly true from the scripture its impossible to miss it.
But to counter the idea that God would do this under the new covenant they show Jesus as the passive and meek lamb that didn't come into the world to judge it. But there's more to that story, and much more to consider than the specific mission and ministry of Jesus.

I am not in any way seeking to diminish the conviction of a man or woman who will not take up arms. But I am saying as best I can, those who will not must also consider their peaceful situation didn't arise from God keeping men home in their beds and playing with children.
God sent them out...and they went with the same conviction as those who hold to passivity.

I found this article to be interesting. During the American Reveloution the "Black Robes" as they were called came to the pulpit with a bible in one hand and a musket in the other:

The Black Robed Regiment: Preachers who fought
Dec 20, 2010

By Dan Fisher

On Sunday morning, Jan 21, 1776, pastor John Muhlenberg climbed into his pulpit in Woodstock, VA to preach. In his black clerical robe, the traditional dress of 18th century preachers, Muhlenberg preached from the third chapter of Ecclesiastes. He read how there is a time for all things. There’s a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to harvest. Then his voice began to rise as he said: "There’s a time of war, and a time of peace. There is a time for all things, a time to preach and a time to pray. But there is also a time to fight, and that time has now come!”

Then he did something his congregation did not expect. He removed his clerical robe revealing a colonial officer’s uniform beneath. Muhlenberg then stepped down from his pulpit and challenged the men of his congregation to join him in the fight for liberty.

Just a few days before, he had been commissioned by General George Washington to raise a regiment from the Woodstock area. As Muhlenberg walked down the aisle and out the door of his church, a drum began to roll outside. One by one, the men of Muhlenberg’s congregation filed out of the auditorium and volunteered to follow their courageous pastor.

Bidding farewell to their families, some three hundred men rode away from Woodstock, VA with Col. John Muhlenberg in the lead to form the 8th Virginia regiment. Muhlenberg led those men throughout the War of Independence, fighting at the battles of Morristown, Brandywine, and Monmouth Courthouse. By the war’s end, Muhlenberg had been promoted to Major General and had become one of Washington’s most valued commanders. Muhlenberg was front and center at the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown.

James Caldwell was pastor of the First Presbyterian Church in Elizabethtown, New Jersey. Because of his strong stand for liberty and his sermons encouraging the colonists to fight, he had made himself numerous enemies. So he would step into his pulpit each Sunday wearing two pistols, place them on the pulpit, and then proceed to preach powerful sermons about the need for Christians to stand for truth. When the war began, Caldwell became a chaplain in the colonial army. He was so hated by the British they called him the "Rebel Priest.”

When the war finally came to Elizabethtown, during the fighting, the British killed Caldwell’s wife. By the time he had completed her funeral, the fighting had moved to Springfield, New Jersey so Caldwell rode there to join his men. During the fighting, the colonists were running out of wadding for their muskets. Caldwell jumped on his horse and rode to the First Presbyterian Church of Springfield and gathered up two armloads of hymnals written by Isaac Watts, a popular hymn writer of the era. He hurried back to his troops, threw the hymnals at their feet, and commanded them to tear out the pages and use them for wadding. As he did so, he yelled, "Give’m Watts boys, give’m Watts!” This is origin of the famous phrase, "Give’m watt for!”

On the night of April 18, 1775, as Paul Revere was making his famous ride through the Lexington, Massachusetts countryside yelling, "The British are coming! The British are coming!” he was headed for a particular house; the house of pastor Jonas Clark. Jonas Clark was a pastor in Lexington and on Sunday afternoons after church, he and Deacon John Parker, a captain from the French Indian War, had been organizing the Lexington men into a citizen army to fight the British if they invaded. On the night of April 18, Clark had two special guests staying in his home, Samuel Adams and John Hancock. The British had heard of Adams’ and Hancock’s whereabouts and they were marching toward Lexington to capture them.

As Revere rode up to the front yard of Clark’s home, Clark, Adams, and Hancock ran out to meet him. When they heard that the British were marching toward Lexington, Adams and Hancock asked pastor Clark if the men of Lexington would fight. Clark responded, "I trained them for this very hour; they would fight, and, if need be, die, too, under the shadow of the house of God.”

The next morning, April 19, 1775, Pastor Jonas Clark and Deacon John Parker led the Lexington "Minutemen” out to face the invaders. As the British approached the Minutemen, they cried out "in the name of the King of England throw down your arms.” This response rang out from the colonists, "We recognize no Sovereign but God and no King but Jesus!” Then Captain Parker said to his Minutemen, "Stand your ground, don’t fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.” Then the first shot rang out, the shot heard around the world.

These are just three examples of the courage and commitment exhibited by many of the colonial pastors in the days before and during our nation’s War of Independence. These men saw no contradiction between standing for the truths in God’s Word and the principles of liberty. In fact, they viewed the two as inseparable. These "black robed patriot preachers” fanned the flames of liberty as they not only encouraged their congregations to fight but were also willing to actually lead their men onto the battlefield. These preachers fought.

The British viewed these pastors such a force, they called them the "Black Robed Regiment.” King George III blamed the war on the preachers by calling it a "Presbyterian rebellion.” Horace Walpole, the English Prime Minister, said, "There is no use crying about it. Cousin America has eloped with a Presbyterian parson.” Although Presbyterian preachers were certainly involved, preachers from practically every denomination joined in the fight.

Today, many believe that had these pastors not been involved, America may never have been born. Now contrast this with the behavior of most American preachers today. In the face of gross abuses of our liberties by an over-reaching federal government that is moving our nation, with ever increasing speed, down the road to Socialism, most pastors are shamefully, strangely silent. Instead of leading their people to boldly and publically stand for liberty and truth, they seem content to huddle in their churches, behind their pulpits, while the country falls apart.

We desperately need a modern generation of preachers like Muhlenberg, Caldwell, and Clark ”“ preachers who’ll fight. We need a new "black robed regiment” to boldly lead our citizens to defend our biblically based Constitution. Thankfully, the fight right now is not one of bullets and bombs but is one of words and wills. But make no mistake about it; a war is raging for the heart and soul of America.

Jesus said that we must "render to God the things that are God’s and render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.” In America, Caesar is "we the people.” America’s government is not in D.C. or in state capitols; it is in our homes and our churches. We are the government. We cannot obey Jesus by staying uninvolved. We must enter the fight for liberty and truth or our freedom to speak and worship as we see fit may soon be lost forever.

Like John Muhlenberg in 1776, I believe "There is a time to preach and a time to pray. But there is also a time to fight, and that time has now come!” God give us patriot preachers to lead the way.

"The next morning, April 19, 1775, Pastor Jonas Clark and Deacon John Parker led the Lexington "Minutemen” out to face the invaders. As the British approached the Minutemen, they cried out "in the name of the King of England throw down your arms.” This response rang out from the colonists, "We recognize no Sovereign but God and no King but Jesus!” Then Captain Parker said to his Minutemen, "Stand your ground, don’t fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.” Then the first shot rang out, the shot heard around the world."

"These men saw no contradiction between standing for the truths in God’s Word and the principles of liberty. In fact, they viewed the two as inseparable. These "black robed patriot preachers” fanned the flames of liberty as they not only encouraged their congregations to fight but were also willing to actually lead their men onto the battlefield. These preachers fought."

Wesley, you are making a very good point.

As a Christian, I do not believe it is right to be part of Military.

A Church should not celebrate Veterans day etc. If we see the real spirit, it is done more to please people. If we please people then we cannot be a servant of Christ.
Jesus never prayed for a nation but only for disciples. He even specifically said he will only pray for disciples. So all these concepts of praying for Nation is not Christlike.

But I also believe Christian principles cannot be applied to a nation. No country can be run by Bible especially by NT. So to protect every country needs its Army. But a Church can stay from be neutral not taking any part in this worldly system.

Amen thanks Sree. I've already made up my mind about the whole matter. I've been thinking about it for a long time. Just wanted others perspectives. I guess it's not worth dividing the body of Christ or maybe. Have a great Thanksgiving!

Hi everyone. So sorry, sorry Sree. I've been troubled by this and I'm not 100% sure I'm right on this issue. I do have to give account. So, although it seems right I'm not sure. Anyway I retract my statement and will delete it later today. Blessings everyone, happy Thanksgiving!

From the little research I've done in the past it seems that there have been many wars fought for corrupt reasons that have been covered up by those high places. The Gulf War is just one of many I think. Seems it was fought for oil and money under the guise of nuclear threat defense. I know that many US soldiers are naive and ignorant regarding those kinds of corrupt motives, and they mean well. Many risk their lives for what they think is a good cause. But lets not be so naive as to think all US wars have been fought for just causes. A little research will clearly show otherwise imo.

As Christians, we need to be very careful as to what we support. I would not recommend for Christians to join the military due to all the corruption involved in political wars. I do not fully trust politicians to make right decisions about what wars to start or fight in. That said, this is not an essential difference that needs to divide us.

Alvin York, Christian Soldier:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/evangelical-history/alvin-york-christian-soldier/

I'm not saying I agree with this treatise and do not agree with Kenneth Gentry's postmillennial view. Nonetheless, I just offer it as food for thought. Of course human freedom ultimately comes from God yet I know that I am free today because men and women in this country took a unavoidable armed stance against Nazism and Japanese expansionism and atheistic and revolutionary Communist aggression.

(BEGIN)
Just War Theory

By Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D.
December 01, 2004

War is on the minds of all Americans today. Like it or not, we are at war with Islamist terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq. Questions regarding these conflicts encourage us to look deeper into the foundational questions about the legitimacy of war.

The Prince of Peace

Christians serve the One prophesied to come as the "Prince of Peace” (Is. 9:6) who was to effect peace (Is. 2:4). His birth was announced by angels as seeking to establish peace: "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased” (Lk. 2:14).

In keeping with prophetic pronouncement and angelic declaration, Christ’s teaching confirms His peaceable intent. We serve a Savior who teaches us "all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them” (Mt. 7:12).1 He commands in Matthew 5:44: "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.” He was so insistent upon this that He taught us: "whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to Him the other also” (Mt. 5:39).

Some Christians take the Lord’s peaceable teachings to entail pacifist obligations. They believe that faithful Christians never support war in any context. They often cite Christ’s "turn the other cheek” as "obvious” evidence for this. They do not realize that He actually said: "whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to Him the other also.” For someone to "slap” you on the right cheek would mean that he was giving you a backhanded slap (in that most people are right handed and would slap with the right hand). Christ is speaking of a personal confrontation seeking to settle differences with a fight. This personal directive does not speak to conflicts on the national level involving security concerns.

Despite widespread and simplistic opinion, Christ’s teaching is much broader than "turn the other cheek.” It is all-encompassing, providing direction for all areas of life: spiritual and physical, personal and social, economic and educational ”” and yes, even political and judicial.

Jesus’ first recorded public discourse opened with a confirmation of the entire Old Testament revelation, including the Mosaic Law (His primary focus): "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt. 5:17-19). Elsewhere He rebukes those who do "not know the Scriptures” and He affirms the Old Testament by other means (Mt. 22:29; cp. Mt. 4:4, 7, 10; Jn. 3:10; 10:35). So what does the Old Testament teach us about war?

The Old Testament and War

The Old Testament endorsed at least certain forms of war. Abram is commended for his war against the evil kings: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand” (Gen. 14:20). Of Moses we read: "Moses built an altar, and named it The Lord is My Banner; and he said, ‘The Lord has sworn; the Lord will have war against Amalek from generation to generation’” (Ex. 17:15-16). Even the Psalmist David writes in a worship song: "Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle” (Ps. 144:1; cp. 2 Sam. 22:35; Ps. 18:34).2

But God’s law does not endorse all war. The Scriptures teach principled war, laying down rules for establishing a just war (jus ad bellum). The Christian view was well stated by the great scholar Augustine in keeping with the overarching peaceable intentions of Christ: "War is waged in order to attain peace.” Because of the sinfulness of man, sometimes war is the way to peace.

In a time when our country is at war, we need to reflect upon the principles of just war that have long been a part of the Christian worldview. The average Christian has only a general, foggy notion of the principles of Just War Theory ”” if any notion at all.

Just War Theory Summarized

In keeping with the peaceable intentions of the Christian faith, Just War Theory posits the following principles:

(1) The Principle of Just Cause. A just war can only be fought to right a grievous wrong and must be engaged with a view to redressing that injury. The right to personal self-defense is always just. We see this legally stated on the personal level in God’s law: "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account” (Ex. 22:2). We see it on the social level in granting the magistrate the right to capital punishment for prescribed crimes: "He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death” (Ex. 21:12).

God condemns "princes [who] are like wolves tearing the prey, by shedding blood and destroying lives in order to get dishonest gain” (Eze. 22:27). The encoding of legislation in the law regarding national armies takes the personal and local right to self-defense to the national level: "Then Amalek came and fought against Israel at Rephidim. So Moses said to Joshua, ‘Choose men for us, and go out, fight against Amalek’” (Ex. 17:8-9; cp. 1 Sam. 30:3, 18-19). The blessings of God include victory against the enemy who assails: "The Lord will cause your enemies who rise up against you to be defeated before you; they shall come out against you one way and shall flee before you seven ways” (Dt. 28:7). Even the New Testament commends just war by placing in the "Hall of Faith” those who "became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight” (Heb. 11:34).

(2) The Principle of Last Resort. In international relations when tensions are raised, Just War Theory seeks to insure peace and safety. Just war can only be waged as a last resort, requiring that all reasonable non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified. Even about cities that threatened Israel we read: "When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and opens unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it” (Dt. 20:10-12).3

(3) The Principle of Legitimate Authority. A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Vigilante justice and gang warfare are not God-ordained means of social conduct. They are debilitating features of social chaos evidencing the breakdown of moral order.

Even just causes require just means of resolution. To plan war is to plan death, which requires duly sanctioned moral authority. This is held only by the civil magistrate, who is ordained to wield the sword in defense of its citizenry.

According to Romans 12:19, vengeance belongs to God who will repay the evildoer. Just three verses later Paul says that God has given the right to avenge wrongdoing to the civil magistrate who is the "minister of God” in this respect ( Rom. 13:1-4). "Governors [are] sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right” (1 Pet. 2:14), which includes punishment of whole nations that threaten evil against another nation.

(4) The Principle of Successful Prospect. A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Human life is precious, in that man is created in the image of God (Gen. 1:26-27). God has a special concern for man, His highest creature: "What is man, that Thou dost take thought of him? And the son of man, that Thou dost care for him?” (Ps. 8:4). God ordains the protection of human life: "Whoever sheds man’s blood by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Gen. 9:6). This, of course, prohibits suicide, even at the national level.

In a parable, Jesus touches on this principle of war: "Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and take counsel whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand?” (Lk. 14:31). David expresses a concern for the prospect of utter defeat: "David inquired of the Lord, saying, ‘Shall I pursue this band? Shall I overtake them?’ And He said to him, ‘Pursue, for you shall surely overtake them, and you shall surely rescue all’” (1 Sam. 30:8).

The righteous seek safety, not destruction: "My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; my savior, thou dost save me from violence. I am saved from my enemies” (2 Sam. 22:3-4). Consequently, wide-scale deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable, being a form of national suicide.

(5) The Principle of Peaceful Objectives. The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace and safety. The historical goal of the Kingdom of God clearly teaches this primary historical objective: "He will judge between the nations and will render decisions for many peoples; and they will hammer their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war” (Is. 2:4). As a counter-example, Islam as a religion and culture has from its founding in Muhammad until the present been in a constant state of war with other cultures.4

The just war goal of securing peace embodies the Biblical principle that we should "not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good” (Rom. 12:21). David, though a "man of war” (1 Chr. 28:3), exhibits his righteous desire for peace: "Too long has my soul had its dwelling with those who hate peace. I am for peace, but when I speak, they are for war” (Ps. 120:6-7). Rushdoony observes: "Even in wartime, God’s purpose, the furthering of life for the purposes of godly dominion, must be obeyed.”5

(6) The Principle of Proportionate Means. Just war is God-sanctioned violence. But the violence meted out in war must be proportional to the injury suffered. For instance, the laws governing capital punishment constrain the state by not allowing the magistrate to capitally punish a thief (Ex. 22:7) or to put to death the murderer’s family: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Dt. 24:16).6 Likewise, the aim of war must be constrained by principles of proportionality, according to the lex talionis principle of "an eye for an eye” (Ex. 21:24; Lev. 24:20f).

Rushdoony observed, "[T]otal war is prohibited, either against man or against his land.”7 Napoleon’s utter humiliation of his enemies led to the Prussian military instructor, Karl von Clausewitz, developing the concept of "total war.” But God’s law forbids total war: "When you besiege a city a long time, to make war against it in order to capture it, you shall not destroy its trees by swinging an axe against them; for you may eat from them, and you shall not cut them down. For is the tree of the field a man, that it should be besieged by you? Only the trees which you know are not fruit trees you shall destroy and cut down, that you may construct siegeworks against the city that is making war with you until it falls” (Dt. 20:19-20).

(7) The Principle of Civilian Immunity. When just war is waged, military plans and actions must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Unarmed civilians are never legitimate targets of war, and every reasonable effort must be taken to avoid killing them. Civilian deaths are tolerable only as accidental, unavoidable collateral damage resulting from an attack on a legitimate military target.

The Scriptures reflect this principle in various places. Armed combatants are the target of just war: "Let not him who bends his bow bend it, nor let him rise up in his scale- armor; so do not spare her young men; devote all her army to destruction” (Jer. 51:3). "When the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the Lord your God has given you” (Dt. 20:13-14). Again, this embodies the principle of man being the image of God and under His protection.

Conclusion

These principles, long maintained in Christian culture and established in Biblical law, must guide us in one of the most fearsome powers of government: the right to wage war. God’s Word directs us in all of life, and is especially important in governing that which can end life and culture.

Notes

1. We must be careful to interpret Jesus’ teaching from within His God-based worldview. For instance, this directive is not to be used with rapists, sodomites, and sado-masochists.

2. This psalm was left out of Roman Catholic peace activist Father Daniel Berrigan’s commentary on the Psalms.

3. Israel had God-defined borders (Gen. 15:18; Ex. 23:31; etc.) and could never legitimately possess imperialistic pretensions. This passage is not dealing with the special, limited Holy War which secured the Promised Land: "Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations nearby” (Dt. 20:15).

4. See my article on the Chalcedon website which shows the inherently destructive character of Islam: "Christ, Muhammad, and the Culture of Beheading.”

5. Rousas John Rushdoony, Institutes of Biblical Law (Vallecito, CA: Ross House Books, 1973), 355.

6. Those who claim court-ordered capital punishment is merely revenge encoded in law must recognize severe limits on the offended: they cannot punish the criminal immediately (without trial), torture him, punish his family, or do anything beyond the limits of the law. Capital punishment actually curtails personal revenge.

7. Rousas J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Vallecito, CA.: Ross House Books, 1973), 355.

When John the Baptist had soldiers come to him he did not tell them to stop being soldiers. Remember also the first Gentile to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit was Cornelius, a Roman military leader. We need police and military; this is a fallen world.

My grandfather was a WW2 veteran. I truly believe the Allied victory was in response to praying christians.

To all veterans, thank you for your service and God bless you.

Is It Wrong For a Christian To Serve in the Military?

By David Servant

https://youtu.be/cGWDQMy2U9Y

When the scripture as a whole is consulted the answer for a Christian who is drafted or willingly enlisted in the military for the express purpose of killing other men is blatantly obvious...Yes God is sending him.

When someone says "no Old testament for me" I want only new testament authority, we have no explicit teachings for or against it, but neither do we for internet porn.

So, the easy answer is "Jesus is all about peace and love toward your fellow man" so war and killing are out.

When we sit comfortably in our homes rationalizations about enlisting or avoiding the military remain all academic.
In such a backdrop of safety and peace they are one and the same...human intentions untested, philosophies untried in the world of men.

When it comes home...when so much passivity has given your enemies a foothold on your lands, a place of power in your government, a gun in their hand to enforce their ideology what of your rationalizations then?

This has been the scenario of so many nations before, their neglect to be watchful over what God has by grace given them is now in immanent danger. Their wives and children are at the verge of being immediate subjects to murder, rape or enslavement. Will you sing kum-by-ya then? Maybe some of you will, and just as quickly be added to the prison population or stacks of bodies ready to be burned.
Your strength as a man served no one in need. Your own family whom you claim to desire they learn only the word of God...will be stripped of bible, stripped of freedoms and stripped of a husband and father...and not even because you died in battle, but died as a coward depending upon another man to rise up and do for you and your family what you have no stomach to do for them.

I personally have no desire to shoot at let alone kill another man, there is nothing in me that wants anything to do with it. But I also know that the justice system that may bring a man to execution for crimes is only 'one method' God uses to judge men, he uses others and he uses men who are not judges, they are not in any legal capacity to execute anyone...but they are under service to their country...no, even more their own love of God and family to preserve and hold on to such privileges.

To so many, loyalty to a country, a nation, a constitution has been ripped away from you, you are living like a leech, bleeding a host to death thinking you will just move on to another host and bleed them. Your living consists of killing not preserving the nation God has ordained to feed you.

No believing Christian just 'pulls the trigger' without conscience...his heart needs to be right with God in such matters. When rationalizations and philosophy will not cut it, only faith in God having men do things they would never naturally seek to do overcomes their skepticisms and internal arguments.

I would ask anyone who believes serving in the military is unscriptural:

What if you were walking down a street late at night and you heard a woman scream for help. You run to where she is and there is a man with a knife trying to rape her.

Would you try to save her even though the rapist might die?

Imagine that you were drafted into the German military in 1934 when Hitler became the official president of Germany. Imagine that you were suddenly going to have to wage war against the Allies and to defend Germany and all its policies. Would it be your Christian duty to resist and rebel against your country? Or would it be your Christian duty to fight and defend your country because the Bible does not prohibit one from being part of a nation’s military and because you owe your service to your country?

If you say your duty would be to rebel against your country yet you say one can never rebel against being part of the US military regardless of any kind of corruption you are aware of, you’re being inconsistent.

Hi drifter, you wrote,

I would ask anyone who believes serving in the military is unscriptural:

What if you were walking down a street late at night and you heard a woman scream for help. You run to where she is and there is a man with a knife trying to rape her.

Would you try to save her even though the rapist might die?

Being part of the military and being part of the police department are two entirely different things. Again, one may force you to fight for unjust causes, while the other forces you to fight obvious crime within your nation in order to protect the innocent and prevent anarchy.

I don't see them as different at all. Both instances, defending a woman from a rapist, and defending an entire country, are acts that require violence upon a person.

Of course I would not fight for an unjust cause like Nazi Germany. But would I fight for the Allies? You bet!

This is a great question and it puts to the test my own rationalizations and opinions.

It was said earlier by someone, Christian first, American afterwards. But what about Christian first and German citizen in 1939? What of my rationalizations then.

I can only say given the hindsight available to me now...I would have enlisted to murder Jews for no other reason than they were considered 'undesirables' by the German intelligencia. To me, that is unconscionable and absolutely to be resisted. But who then had such keen spiritual vision as to recognize Hitler's lies at that time?

Very few indeed...and men Like Bonheoffer stand out in stark contrast to following party politics.

Blindly grabbing the gun for God and country has ramifications far beyond present opinions of the matter.