God and the accuser wager over Job's life

Someone I love dearly is struggling with his faith. He is asking a lot of questions that show he is doubting who God is.

One thing that has been bothering this person is how God basically used Job as a pawn. God made a wager with the accuser and basically destroyed Job's life. That seems rather unfair and unjust.

I don't have an answer. I have looked online and honestly I didn't find a satisfactory answer. Mostly I feel it is not addressed. The common idea that is stated is that while it seems that God is wagering with the accuser, there is more going on. But the question isn't really answered.

I myself trust God's goodness and mercy so for me this is not a struggle; it just shows me I don't understand God. But for someone who doesn't trust God, I can see why there would be an issue.

If anyone can provide some explanation or any resources that I can use or pass along I would greatly appreciate it. Video formats are better for this person.

Prayer is also welcome because ultimately it is the Holy Spirit that will convict him.

Thank you.
Natalie

There is a lot of strangeness in the "set-up” of Job. There’s no way to know what exactly was going on or even IF it was actually going on.

Bottom line, however, is that your friend should be a disciple of Jesus, not Job.

Job is the question”” Jesus is the answer.

If there appear to be inconsistencies because of our limited understanding, ALWAYS look to Jesus. Hebrews 1:3.

Maybe what we don't see are God's secret thoughts in the story. His love would say I'm going to bless Job more if he gets through this and obeys me.
It's just something I have heard from others how they went through a difficult time at one point in their life

A righteous man like Job who suffers injustice that God allowed and even planned for so that that righteous man could be tested whether he would remain faithful to God, conquer temptation, the world, his flesh and Satan so that he could see God. That sounds vaguely familiar.

All God's people suffer to differing degrees in the same manner, testing their faith, conquering the world, the flesh and Satan ultimately to one day receive the crown of life and a vision of their God.

That form of narrow path and hard road to God is not hard to understand. Difficult to do of course. Necessary? Only Jesus' words suffice to answer. "If there is any other way Father". Apparently not. All things are designed for our good. Can't argue with "all things" and "designed".

I view Job's story as an illustration of what life is like, explains the trials we have, how and why they happen. The end result of being blessed financially like Job may not always happen to people who are faithful.

If you study the book carefully, you will find questions common to people who experiences difficulties in life. Before our daughter was diagnosed with glioblastoma I was led to study Job....I got weary of it after several chapters because of those friends who kept pestering Job with the same questions, kept going long after they made their point - lots of circular reasoning - bored me stiff. BUT I got the point. Then Regina got sick and died later. I can look back at this point in time as the hand of God leading me to learn a few things about God and among them is that some things won't make sense and I do not have to know why He is allowing it - just trust Him anyways.

In reality, the rest of the Scripture proves this very point, as well. Consider the life of Joseph and later the Exodus. All these trials as recorded in Exodus can be summed up as stated in Exodus 20:20: "Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." NASB

I suggest you tell your friend to study carefully the life of the patriarchs, go on through to the Israelites entering into Canaan and read Joshua. All the while imagine being there with them, participating in that journey. It may help to get a good Bible atlas like Holman Bible Atlas to help you get a sense of distance and place. These are real people you are studying - don't forget that. Also note the time between events - this is very important. All the while ask the LORD to reveal what it is He wants you to learn. The scriptures are super rich in insights - no other piece of literature can equal it. None.

God bless.

Sandra

Hi Ginny, While it is true that God more than restored Job's temporal situation which is comforting from an OT perspective, that does not always happen in this life in the Kingdom of God. However, what was lost on me in the Job story until this thread made me consider it is that Job got to "see" God. To me, that grace given to a bankrupt follower of God far surpasses any temporal gain God would also give Job. Job's vision of God was an unimaginable blessing to Job that arguably would not have occurred unless Job had faithfully continued to worship God no matter what Satan threw at him.

Natalie,
I do not know if this will help, as I know that one cannot come to God except He draw them through His Grace, but The Lord does draw ones though God who is working in a person, which after watching dozens of this man’s messages believe God is truly working in him.... a modern day Paul that God has gave great insight into The Life and knowledge of God.

I watched this today , and you came to mind.
It blessed me.
I pray it helps.
””””””””””””
"Understanding The God Who Has Spoken”
By Gbile Akanni

https://youtu.be/aaUMyuhiEPA
””””””””””””-
elizabeth

He has misunderstood what God was doing with Job. An important principle to understand why what happened happened is issue of hope. Not just mere natural aspiration and fleshly ambition but true biblical hope.

Let’s look at the example of the stewardship of God given talents. In Matthew 25, we have the parable of the talents. The lord was gone for an extended time and the servants were responsible to use and invest the talents on his behalf. The lord didn’t expect the servants to feed and house themselves. He provided for their needs and made them responsible for a portion of his wealth to invest it and be fruitful. When the master returned, the neither the talent nor the increase were the servants’. Yet their needs were taken care of every day. The one who was responsible for the single talent was provided for just as much as the one with five. But the kicker is that the profits from the talents were a trial for the real reward responsibility for multiple cities and all the honor provisions that brings with it. So did the servants keep the talents they had earned? No, most certainly not. They were given something much better.

The one who did not receive the greater blessing was the one who complained and called his master stingy and unfair. His master had taken care of him.

The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof. Really? What’s the implication? What does anyone actually own? Job understood this and when the Lord revealed Himself in Job 40-41 that Job’s mouth was stopped. Even righteous Job saw his inadequacy and sin.

11 "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 ***If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children***, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Luke 11:11-13

Why can’t folks just admit that the "set-up” in Job is just terrible? It really is. It’s not wrong to say it. That’s why this friend in the OP is struggling.

Platitudes don’t help at all- I am sure he has heard all of them and all the justifications.

It is an extremely difficult passage to understand regardless how it turned out for Job.

The God who Devastates by Art Katz

Topic: Devastation
Scripture(s): Proverbs 1:7 \t
Description: Art Katz speaks prophetically using the holocaust and the sufferings of Job applying it to the Church and the need of repentance. If Divine reality is to come into the church in its present unreal condition, then we need to expect devastations in our midst of the deepest and challenging kind. The text is from the suffering of Job.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3328

First and foremost there is a great logical flaw in the question posted by OPs friend. One cannot deny a fact because it does not feel good to them. For example one cannot deny the spinning of the earth just because one cannot feel the spin. If we consider the existence of God as a fact, one cannot deny this fact because the nature of God is not feel good to them.

To understand Job better we need to understand what is valuable in the sight of God. Job 1:1 stays about Job's spiritual righteousness and after that only verses 2 to 4 talks about his Physical blessings like his possession.

Even God himself presents only the Spiritual condition to Satan, he does not even mention about how many goats, camels that Job has to Satan.

All this shows that God is only interested in spiritual condition of Job. This is the same from Genesis to revelation.

But OPs friend with his unconverted heart, values only Physical blessings of Job and that is why they cannot value what God does in Job's life to uplift his spiritual condition. It is impossible for him to value what God values as well. That is why he feels that what was done to Job was a terrible act.

Job had a self righteousness in him. He argued to his friends that he does not deserve to be in this condition because of his righteous God fearing acts! God had already seen this in Job even before it came out his mouth. God wanted to remove this self-righteousness in Job. That is why in the End Job says that he now has seen God and repents from his self-righteousness (Job 42:5 and 6).

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus himself was made perfect through sufferings. If God did not spare his own son from suffering then where are you, I and Job.

Again unless a person is truly born again, he cannot understand how God values our spiritual condition more than Physical. He will always call Jobs treatment as bad and unjust. But if we know God even little then we will acknowledge the value that God brought inside Job through all this suffering is nothing compared to the sufferings he went through. That is why Paul who knew the ways of God says,

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us (Romans 8:18).

We also must remember that God did not just strike Job himself in order to "improve” him, but he also allowed his children to be killed.

"If we obey what God says according to our sincere belief, God will break us from those traditions that misrepresent Him. There are many such beliefs to be got rid of, e.g., that God removes a child because the mother loves him too much ”” a devil’s lie! and a travesty of the true nature of God. If the devil can hinder us from taking the supreme climb and getting rid of wrong traditions about God, he will do so; but if we keep true to God, God will take us through an ordeal which will bring us out into a better knowledge of Himself.” ~ Oswald Chambers

I would like to present a moment of honesty. Hopefully everyone could also drop the "religiosity" and be honest as well.

In Job satan tells God the only reason Job serves Him is because of the protection and blessing God gives him.

satan then asks for the permission to destroy Job's health, finances, and murder his children. God allows this to happen. Let that sink in. God gives permission for satan to destroy Job's health, finances, and murder his children..
Yes, later restored ... but the point is that God permitted this. It appears that the only motivation was that God was proving to satan that Job would still be faithful. In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest.

NOW FOR THE HONESTY PART....

If you had a criminal in your town that said the only reason your children loved you was because you blessed and protected them. He then bet you that if he could infect your children with diseases, destroy everything they owned, and then murder their family they would disown you. You had every ability to either allow or stop this assault on your kids. However, to prove they would not disown you the assault on your children is approved by you. YOU ALLOW AND PERMIT the disease infection, financial ruin, and murder of your own child's family ... just to prove they would not disavow you.

If someone did this in your world everyone on this forum would be screaming of child abuse and to lock them up!

How would you feel toward a parent that willingly let a man enter their childs bedroom and inject them with diseases as they slept? How would you feel about a person that gave all their childs financial banking information to a person allowing them to steal their entire life savings costing them their home and all they had? How would you feel about a person that willingly allowed a person to enter their children's house and murder all the family at gunpoint. The parent had every ability to stop all this ... but allowed it just to prove a point to the man attacking the kids. How would you feel about that person .... Be honest.

You would absolutely brand them as a child abuser, wouldn't you.

THIS is why the man's friend in the op is in a quandary about Job. He sees God making choices that are diametrically opposed to every sense of goodness and justice that are known. If a person did what God did in Job everyone on this forum would brand them a child abuser, accessory to murder, and criminal of the worst sort.

Failure to see this and be honest about it is why the op's friend is in a quandary.

All the religious platitudes and efforts to somehow make the story palatable are shallow, hollow, and easily seen through by anyone not afraid to look at it with clear glasses. We should not continue to lie to ourselves about the reality of what happened ... much less make up false narratives to try and sooth our conscience about it. It happened exactly as the book states. I'm sure no one likes it, few want to be honest about it, and almost all try to somehow twist it around to make it fit their preconception biased theology.

It is apparent that most do not understand God nearly as well as they think they do.

Nowhere in the book of Job does it say that God was angered by Satan's accusations. However, His wrath *was* kindled against Job's friends who did not speak the things that were right concerning Him and His servant Job (see Job 42:7).

Well said. It is a very primitive thought process to think that God and Satan had a challenge with Job. Satan is not equal negative power of God. God created Satan and uses his foolish actions for His (God's) glory.

In Job's case as well, Satan thought of destroying Job but God fooled him to bring Job to a higher plane.

Similarly in Peter's case as well, Satan was given permission to test Perter, even though Jesus knew clearly Perter is going to fail. But Jesus knew that Peter will one day speak a short sermon that will bring 3000 people to Christ! To prepare Peter, God used Satan and there by fooling Satan again.

May be it is a Sunday School mistake to show kids that God and Satan had a head to head battle with Job!

I personally believe God permitted Job's children to die because God also knew that Job will not be disturbed by it. God will never tempt anyone beyond what he can take (1 Cor 10:3).

In fact Job came with flying colors, when his Children died he ended up worshiping God. Even when his body was hurt by sores, he said that he is willing to receive both God and bad from God! All this God knew that Job will handle.

But later it was Job's friend's who brought the self righteousness out of Job by their poor council! It was actually his friends who became too much for Job to handle. Hence God was angry at Job's friends because they made a righteous man stumble!

Alec wrote:

//Actually, Solomon101, you are reading things into the narrative that are not there.
You wrote: "In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest."//

Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, ***although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”*** (emphasis supplied)
Job 2:3

I would like to thank all that have answered thus far.

I would like to first state that there is no doubt that this person I love is saved. However, he has allowed himself to be taken so far away from his First Love that he no longer recognizes the One he once loved. I have seen the enemy pull him further and further away, to the point now that he has been doubting that God is good, and mocks the fact that we use the Bible to prove the Bible, responds to convicting scriptures with a joke or a "meme," and other such things. I know that He Who began a good work in him will complete it, but it is so hard to watch the process.

As to the responses, I have been reading and pondering all of the responses. I think all of them are correct, even if that seems contradictory.

The issue I think is what we think of the nature of God. If we know God is good and merciful and graceful, we come at this question from a different perspective. Job summarizes this thought: "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” Job 2:10.

If we think God is like us, then His motives and response seem rather cruel.

And while there may have been what appeared to be a wager, we do no really know God's intent; He does one thing for more than one reason. As someone said, Job did learn something from this, and though he had a "righteous" heart, his idea of God was not entirely correct and he felt justified to judge God.

But these responses are not satisfying to one who is not at peace with God generally. I do not know how to respond to him in a way that makes him understand. Someone mentioned the suffering of Jesus, which was definitely unfair and unjust, and I know that is something we, and I assume he as well, are all glad about.

I don't think there is a satisfactory answer for our earthly minds. It does seem cruel; yet, I KNOW it is NOT because my God is good! My prayer is that the Holy Spirit will reach into his soul and enlighten him with the love of Christ.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

EDITED TO ADD THIS: I think, however, that we need to have an answer ready (1 Pet 3:15), and I really don't. It is not enough for me to say, "You have to wait until you understand God," or, "you don't get it because you are unconverted (or your heart is wrong, etc.)." For someone who is seeking, these seem like trite answers to a legitimate question. I will continue praying for the answer that God wants me to give this person (if He wants me to answer him at all).

Natalie.