Even if it works for a while, someone could have saved him the trouble. The finest of human sentiment and leadership won't solve this one. It's divine election and how it is offensive to and stumbles the natural man that really is at the bottom of the controversy. I wonder how President Trump's spiritual advisors and even his pastor advised him on this one.
David are you saying there’s no use anyone trying to help to bring peace to the region?
Blessed are the peacemakers- I read that somewhere.
I believe we should rejoice in the righteousness in donald trump choosing this choice to try and seek peace. It is clear he is standing for what is right and God will bless him for that. This in the very least deserves all our fervent prayers.
President Trump is dividing up land which is not His to divide. That's a hard bottom line but the decision regarding the land and who will eventually abide and remain in it has already been made. The nations of the world are in dire need of warning that they are tampering with something much bigger than them. Ultimately the choice of who will abide in this land is not theirs to make.
14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel; they shall build the waste cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine from them; they also shall make gardens and eat fruit from them.
15 I will plant them in THEIR LAND, and no longer shall they be pulled up from THE LAND I have given them, says the Lord your God. (Amos 9:14-15)
GOD JUDGES THE NATIONS
1 "For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also DIVIDED UP MY LAND.
3 They have cast lots for My people, (Joel 3:1-3)
God calls it HIS LAND even when the regathered nation remains in unbelief. Along with preaching the gospel of salvation to every person and nation, part of the church's last days mandate is to warn the nations that part of the everlasting covenant centers around a redeemed Israel being placed in the land God gives them never to be rooted up again. Dividing this land through international treaties etc. will not work to solve this issue. It may have some momentary success but eventually it will be revealed it was human sentiment that came up with the best solution it could think of. This present age ends with a great unequaled tribulation being set off by events occurring in Israel and with the nations gathered to oppose Israel one final time. Obviously, our President is not aware of this or perhaps thinks he may be able to negotiate around it. NOT! He seems biblically illiterate of the truth already revealed regarding the ultimate destiny of the Jewish nation and the land. Netanyahu also is in the dark. The church can know the issue beforehand because of the peculiar value of prophecy already given beforehand. That is where I think we should draw our instruction from over regarding this matter.
David-
It sounds like your position is that God is going to do what He is going to do(I certainly agree with that). Therefore, what possibility is there that Trump’s proposal toward peace will thwart God’s ultimate intention? Answer: it can’t.
It goes without saying that your views on the matter (specifically the end times) are not universally held. I am not suggesting that means you are wrong, just that you may not be right.
15 "Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. (Matthew 24:15-22)
Prophecy has a peculiar value to the Christian because he can know of coming events beforehand. The end of the age will be triggered by events occurring in the land of Israel. No mystery and no "reinterpretation" needed in my opinion. God has given us the gift of plain and clear understanding that does not take advanced degrees or much exalted learning to understand. The plain common layman can understand and that is they way God intended it to be.
Jesus came to Israel, ministered in Israel, left Israel and promised to return to Israel.
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from JERUSALEM.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.
One can get heartsick longing for this day. International peace treaties will not bring this about. I know this because prophecy has informed me beforehand.
So we shouldn’t try for peace now?
Jesus loves Palestinians as much as Jews, or anyone else for that matter.
I think what we should do now as Christians is to examine what prophecy has told us beforehand is going to happen. There is nowhere in prophecy that tells us beforehand that man made peace treaties will settle the controversy.
That the Lord loves Palestinians as well as everyone goes without saying. Ultimately that is not the issue. The issue is who has God chosen and elected to ultimately live in and become stewards of this land. That doesn't mean Palestinians are not loved by God. It means God's sovereign choice will stand but Jews will not inherit the land because they are mere physical descendants of Abraham. The true children of Abraham are the children of faith and an eschatological remnant of Jews will become just that - children of faith. They will have to come by way of the cross as everyone else.
Many people believe that injustice has resulted from Israel being restored to their own land. Even some sincere Christians hold this point of view. The Bible is emphatic, however, that God is incapable of injustice. In Deuteronomy 32:3-4 (NAS), in his closing words to Israel, Moses declared:
"For I proclaim the name of the Lord; ascribe greatness to our God! The Rock! His work is perfect, for all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He."
Someone has compared our view of history to a person looking at the reverse of an oriental rug. The various shapes and colors seem confused and unattractive. But when the rug is turned right side up, its true beauty can be appreciated.
So it is with the outworking of God's purposes in history. From our earthly point of view it is hard to discern the pattern which God is weaving. Often it seems jumbled and meaningless. But when we are able to see it from heaven's perspective, we can agree with Moses that His work is perfect, and all His ways are just.
This is not to deny that on the human level acts of injustice have been perpetrated by the various parties involved in the return of Israel to their land. Many people have suffered greatly.
Of all the parties involved, however, none has suffered as much as the Jews. After six million of their people perished in the holocaust, a tiny remnant have had to face more than 40 years (now 70) of life-and-death struggle for survival in their own land.
I myself have experienced firsthand at least some small measure of both the injustice and the suffering that accompanied the rebirth of the state of Israel. During the conflict that broke out at that period, my first wife and I were living in Jerusalem with our adopted family of eight girls. Of these, six were Jewish, one was a Palestinian Arab and one was English. Their ages ranged from twenty to five. Twice within a few months, my wife and children and I had to flee from our home in the middle of the night, taking nothing more with us than what we could carry in our hands.
On the first occasion our lives were threatened by a detachment of soldiers from the Arab Legion. This was the official armed force of Jordan and one of the security forces in Jerusalem at that time, theoretically responsible to safeguard the residents of the city. At seven o'clock one evening we learned that a group of these soldiers was planning to attack our home at midnight and to rape and/or murder our Jewish girls. Our whole family walked out into the dark at nine o'clock and never returned to that house again.
At that point, my family and I became refugees. Certainly we did not suffer as much as many, yet I have firsthand experience of both injustice and suffering. But to charge God with injustice on that account would be an error.
The problem is that under the influence of humanistic philosophy, our contemporary Western culture has embraced a perverted and unbalanced view of human relationships.
The issue is brought out in Matthew 22:36-39, where a lawyer is questioning Jesus:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him, "' You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Here we see that God requires from us two different dimensions of love - one vertical and the other horizontal. The vertical dimension is love for God; the horizontal dimension is love for our fellow human beings. But the vertical dimension is primary; the horizontal is secondary.
Furthermore, the horizontal relationship is dependent upon the vertical. If we do not love God above all else, our love for our fellow man can never be all that God requires.
The same is true in respect of justice. From the biblical perspective, justice has two dimensions - vertical and horizontal. The vertical dimension defines the claims that God has, as Creator, upon the whole human race. The horizontal deals with the claims that men have on their fellowmen.
The current secular approach to Middle East issues typically ignores the vertical dimension of justice. Unfortunately, many professing Christians have been influenced by this secular way of thinking. Nevertheless, true justice requires that we first acknowledge the claims that God has on all men, and only after that should we acknowledge the claims that we have on our fellowmen or they have on us.
As we have already seen, one primary claim that God, as Creator, has on all nations is to determine areas which He has allotted to each of them to inhabit (Acts 17:26). As long as men refuse to acknowledge this just claim of God upon them, they will never know true justice or true peace.
In Acts 17:31, speaking to a Gentile audience in Athens, Paul declared the resurrection of Jesus from the dead marked Him out as God's appointed judge and ruler, to whom all men must give account:
"For He [God] has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead" (NIV).
I recall a remark once by Marcus Dods, a former professor of history at Cambridge University: "The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best attested facts of human history." Because God has thus attested Jesus, He requires that all men submit themselves to His authority. This is the primary, vertical dimension of justice.
When the peoples of the Middle East have acknowledged God's just claim upon their submission to Jesus, the way will be opened for them to achieve peace with each other. In the meanwhile, political negotiations can produce at best a temporary, superficial peace. True justice and lasting peace, however, will not come to the Middle East until the Messiah reigns.
(From "Prophetic Destinies" - by Derek Prince. Copyright 1992 - Ch 6:"Is God Unjust" - pg 62-66)
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:17-21
Now I understand that the vast majority of Jewish people in Israel are not Christians, but this is God's standard regardless. Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan to Jewish people.
Regardless of the "land” argument, God would prefer peace vs strife. It seems that in this proposal Israel would be giving up their right to something for the sake of peace with their neighbor.
How in the world can that be wrong?
When the peoples of the Middle East have acknowledged God's just claim upon their submission to Jesus, the way will be opened for them to achieve peace with each other. In the meanwhile, political negotiations can produce at best a temporary, superficial peace. True justice and lasting peace, however, will not come to the Middle East until the Messiah reigns.
- Humanistic political solutions producing temporary superficial peace.
- True justice and lasting peace when the Messiah begins to reign.
I believe the Bible speaks much more of the latter. Totally reliable prophecy I think should guide us more than placing our hope in that which will produce only temporary results. And Israel's Islamic enemies and Palestinian refugees have been offered a state since 1948 if they would acknowledge Israel's right to exist. So far they have turned the numerous offers down.
But the fact of the matter right now is that Messiah is not reigning in a physical sense.
Your solution for right now seems to be do nothing. The alternative to that is to do something. The latter makes more sense to me.
They have offered a homeland state to the Palestinian refugees (which none of the Arab nations were willing to take in) since 1948. Will they accept this "deal" or balk at it also? Kudos I guess for trying but the future is ever before us NOW because of what prophecy has told us beforehand. President Trump and the leaders of Israel I assume remain for the most part prophetically illiterate as do large sections of the church. Many are familiar with prophecies already fulfilled in the history of Israel and the life of Jesus but many are basically unclear regarding the future which is laid out in prophecy. The prophesied future is shaping the present rather than present activities forming the future. Most treaties so far regarding this issue have been based on humanism and earthly sentiments instead of utilizing the divine perspective. More peace tomorrow would be good but it always has to be looked at as temporary and in the end something that will not work. Does President Trump or Benjamin Netanyahu think they can bring enough peace to this earth so as to navigate around or avoid the way Jesus described the end of this present age? Both have probably never looked into with any detail what Jesus said.
And I have prayed for the Palestinians more than a little. They are caught up in something bigger than them that transcends the viewpoints of their own beliefs and leaders. This controversy will not be solved by human efforts and will continue to grow as the hot potato of international politics.
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said he is cutting security ties with Israel and the U.S. on Saturday, in reaction to a U.S.-brokered peace plan that immediately met with furious objections from the Palestinians.
Abbas said he told Israel and the U.S. that "there will be no relations with them, including the security ties" following the deal that Palestinians say heavily favors the Israelis. He also said he will refuse to take President Trump’s phone calls "because I know that he would use that to say he consulted with us.”
"I will never accept this solution," Abbas said. "I will not have it recorded in my history that I have sold Jerusalem."
The furious reaction by Abbas came during a speech at an Arab League meeting in Cairo, Egypt that denounced the plan -- and poured cold water on the plan’s chances.
The plan was unveiled by President Trump on Tuesday and calls for a two-state solution -- with the creation of a future state of Palestine in Gaza, parts of the West Bank and neighborhoods on the outskirts of Jerusalem. The White House has called it "the most serious, realistic, and detailed plan ever presented, one that could make Israelis, Palestinians, and the region safer and more prosperous.”
"If the Palestinians have concerns with this Vision, they should bring them forth in the context of good-faith negotiations with the Israelis and help make progress for the region,” it said.
The plan would require the Palestinians to meet certain benchmarks -- rooting out terrorism, stopping "pay to slay," implementing steps toward free speech and political reforms. It also calls for the creation of a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem and for more than doubling the amount of territory the Palestinians control.
The plan also includes land swaps, a demilitarized Palestinian state, Israeli power over security as well as a demand for Israel to halt the construction of any new settlements. It also would abolish the "right of return” for Palestinians into Israel.
Controversially for Palestinians, it would allow Israel to annex settlements in the West Bank, which the Palestinians have long contended to be illegal. Critics also say that Israel's control over borders, airspace, and security means that Palestinian statehood would lose its meaning.
But Abbas said the Palestinians wouldn’t accept the U.S. as the sole mediator, instead, saying they want to go to the world and other regional organizations such as the U.N. Security Council.
The speech came after Palestinian militants fired three rockets into Israel, triggering airstrikes from Israel on militant targets in Gaza in response.
This discussion is locked.
