Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God

Hi SI members,
Its hard all the time to speak of problems or shortcomings in the Church without causing some discouragement but we have a problem in all Christ loving Churches whether they be Pentecostal,Baptist,Brethren or whether we are post trib or pre trib ,whether Calvinist or Arminian.
That is of wrong authority in the Church.We have a Clergy class and a Layity Class and Jesus died so that their would be no division in the body.
How do you mean you may ask?
We are a Royal Priesthood and their is no room for a layity class is what I mean.
Let me explain further:
We have people going around in the Church calling themselves by their gifting ie Apostle Jamie or Prophet Janet etc alot of it bogus by the way but some are not but thats not important for this post. Paul clearly didnt call himself by his gifting.He was Paul and his position/Gift was an Apostle.
Most of us cannot complain though because almost all of us on SI do the same thing at our Sunday or Midweek meeting when we wrongly call the leader of our respective churches "Pastor" such as Paster John or Paster whatever.
So What?you may say but by calling a person by their gifting you have created a Clergy class and in doing that you have created a layity class.
Let me take it further again,I find no problem myself for a leader of Church getting a salary ,its just nessacary at times however the problem arrives when we start using terms like "full time" and "in the ministry".
Why?Because if one person is "in the ministry" it automatically means another person isnt again adding to the identity problem in the Church.
Whether a person gets a salary for doing 40 or 50 hrs a week or whether a person ministers 3 hrs a week To Christ We are All "full time" ministers ,To Christ We are All a "Royal Priesthood",We are all Clergy for the want of a better word.
If we dont look at it and structure our Churches that way then we have an unbiblical Layity class and a Clergy class(all good people thats not in question)that are in wrong authority.We have a layity class that have an identity problem as they dont see that its their job to minister and a clergy class who keep wondering why the church members are so latargic!
Paul,An Apostle of Christ Jesus not The Apostle Paul,
Paul a tentmaker and in his spare time he preached but always a full time minister and always a Royal Priest.
As long as we call the leader by his gifting rather than his name we will have a layity class not living their resposibilies and a clergy class expected to do everything and not understanding why they are left to it!
Their are many other side effects such as a leader can not be choosen from the layity class and the gifts in the Church will obviously be more ineffectual etc.I consider it the biggest issue we have in the Church today and the one that causes the most harm.
It does amaze me that all the Pastors I know many of them friends have gone through training and bible college and dont understand or have no knowledge of this simple and basic theology.
Yours Staff

The recent thread " Living in an Atmosphere of Heaven by Zac Poonen” speaks to this somewhat.

The most powerful gatherings I have been involved in are where there were no pastors present- or where they are not in their role as pastors. Because when a pastor is present in that capacity everyone defers and holds back by default.

Hi TMK,
I will look that thread up ,I havent seen it.
My point is that their can be 20 pastors present or 20 leaders present,in fact it would be good having a meeting with Church gifts present.Its not that we dont have leaders ,we need leaders but we cant have a layity class.
By using structure terms like "in the ministry" and "full time ministry" and calling people by their gift rather than their name we construct a clergy class and by default a layity class.Everybody that is in the body is in the Ministry ,some are a hand or foot or toenail but all are in the Ministry .Some are more prominent because they are doing 50 hrs a week and some are less prominent because the body only needs them 2 hrs a week but all are of the one body.The body of Christ might not use the thumb as much as it uses the mouth but both are full time parts of the body.Imagine if I called someone with the gift of Church Admin this Admin Joe ,how ridiculas it would be !But thats what we are at calling a Pastor by his gift!The role of Pastor has usurped its position and needs to be put back in proper order.Usurping authority is witchcraft!How can the Church command a blessing when this is in its midst.
The whole thing leads to the gifts not working in proper order and the saints do not get equiped! urs staff

I am part of a church over 10 years, that has elders and not pastors. Elder is just a responsibility and not a title. No one gets called by any title. All are bothers and sisters. A church is not a place to meet every Sunday that is run by a board who appoints pastors. Church is a body, every part in a body should work and every member in a church is a part in the body. They have different roles like elder, prophet, teacher, helpers, Evangelist etc. But none of them have this as titles.

Jesus allowed us to have only 2 titles, brothers and servants.

I firmly believe that the church I am part of has the true biblical pattern. But pattern is not everything. Some people visit us and then decide that they too can start a church with the pattern we follow. But it is the presence of God that differentiates a church.

The pattern given for Tabernacle to Moses by God was so simple. Anyone can build one using the pattern but it is the presence of God that differentiated what Moses built.

Please seek the presence of God and not pattern.

Hi Sree,
Agree with you here and this is the biblical model.
The structure of Elders as responsibilities is the starting point and any Church that doesnt have the presence of God is in a difficult place anyway.But the structure is crucial in my opinion otherwise we have a layity class which means even if we have the presence of God the Church isnt in order and will not function correctly.The Presence of God will not over ride wrong structure and thats where I disagree with you.
Unless Peter put the correct structure back in operation then Pentecost would have arrived and their would not have been an out pouring on that day ,urs staff

Staff:

Reality check.

I went to bible college/seminary, I sacrificed time and money, I earned a degree in theology, pastoring. I humbled myself to serve others in a local church, I gave of my tithe, I gave of my time again and again, I prayed and God answered. I was selected by a board of elders, I was above my peers and chosen 'by God' through them to preach and teach, guide and counsel, build and tear down as God directs me.
I have earned this title, I have sacrificed for his title and the last thing the Church needs is someone who has not sacrificed...not believed God, not prepared himself to be a servant...telling me just how I ought to do it and when to do it. They have no real right or authority. They are simply self-appointed policemen with no biblical mandate or place to step over me.

Pastor Marvin my-way-or-the-highway-leader-in-charge

This is all rhetorical...but its the way men think.

Hi Glory and Grace,
I think that some leaders are lead to study at Bible College and these courses naturally end with degrees .The problem is when degree from a Bible College is the qualification to be a leader.
The qualification(their are other character qualifications outlined by Paul) to be a leader is that God has called you into that position and if you have a College degree good and if you have not good.Both the person with the degree and the one without just come to the role from different directions thats all.If we exclude the one without a degree we have then created a Layity class,
yours staff

Hey staff I am not sure you caught the sarcasm in Marvin’s post. Just wanted to make sure.

The reason I mentioned 'having a Biblical pattern is of no value IF God is not present in a Church', is to show that I do not glory in the right Biblical pattern that I am part of. I glory in the presence of God and Spiritual unity of brothers, which cannot be seen plainly but has to be experienced by a needy soul.

Having said that I have great respect for Pastors, though I disagree with their title or way of achieving it. For example, I have respect for David Wilkerson who too had a title Pastor. I have respect for everyone who servers God either with or without title.

I believe the problem is with the believers who see Church only as a place of worship on Sundays, but never actually involve as a part in a body. They are satisfied with just attendance. So there is nothing wrong if they become your so called Layity class!

If they are genuinely interested in severing God then no one prevents them from evangelizing people and bringing them to a Church, then they are evangelists in that Church appointed by God not by man. They can invite other Church goers in their Church and conduct house meeting, no one prevents this! It is important what Title God gives us and not what man gives. Even if they are not valued in human eyes for their service to God, they will be rewarded in heaven.

I believe the heaven will be filled with people who served God out of love rather than severing God ONLY out of man made title.

TMK,
No I did lol,It was brilliantly put lol .I guess the other thing about the set up in the Church today is the frustration it breeds I know in me anyway,staff

Sree,
I too have respect for my own Pastor and for David Wilkerson even if I disagree with the position they are or were in.
But ......believers see the Church as a place to go on a Sunday and dont involve themselves because they are the layity class.They fulfill the responsibilities of Service to the Body that is required of a layity class which is leave it to the professional Clergy class for the most part and chip in when the Clergy class complains the workload is too much!What I am pointing out is the Layity class dont even know they are the Layity class and when they find out the unbiblical position they are in they wont be satisfied with just filling the pews on a Sunday but may get involved with the Body.
God is a God of Order and Structure as well as Freedom,first Apostles,Prophets,Evangelists etc and once their is a Clergy/Layity divide the gifts cannot work correctly or in order and cannot equip the Saints ..
So even though an Apostle may be given the title by God he is being usurped by the role of Pastor in the modern Church.They may be effective to some degree as may an evangelist or a Prophet but the gifts will not be in order and fall way short of the equipping nessacary.
On your final point I believe that our greater or lesser service to God will not determine our Salvation in heaven but will determine our reward.Our greater love for God will determine our greater service.
Also as a footnote We can have and God wants us to have all three aspects discussed Love for him,His Presence as you mentioned and proper Biblical Church Structure that equips the saints and has them live with the correct identity not one of being a lay minister but of being a Royal Priest,ur staff

What I am pointing out is the Layity class dont even know they are the Layity class and when they find out the unbiblical position they are in they wont be satisfied with just filling the pews on a Sunday but may get involved with the Body.

They are themselves to blame for it. If a person has sincere desire to please God and serve him out of love, he will be revealed of his duties. No man can stop him from doing it.

So even though an Apostle may be given the title by God he is being usurped by the role of Pastor in the modern Church.

Strongly disagree with it. You are totally ignoring the power of God here. If God has given a man gift, he will also bring it to use. It is like God lighting a lamp and then hiding it, he will never do it.

For example John Bunyan was prevented from preaching to any congregation because he was not appointed by any Church. He served prison time for doing what God called him to do. Yet the book he wrote from prison, is one of the most sold book and 2nd next only to Bible.

Peter and John himself were told not to preach Jesus, but God used them to plant Churches.

The calling of God is not dependent on the act of man to suppress the call other than self suppressing.

Hi Sree,
I am not ignoring the power of God at all on the contrary I am trying to create an environment where God can operate through his Church in the most powerful and effective way so that their will be no need of more splits and schism.
The scriptures contain the word of God which has power and does not return void.Paul regularly pointed out things to people about scripture that they did not know already.
He had to point out as I am doing the order of the gifts in the Church so that they would function correctly and equip the saints.What you are saying is that it doesnt matter about the proper order of the gifts and Paul needed not have bothered explaining about them as they would have worked anyway.
In Peter and Johns day they had proper order of the gifts and proper Church Structure and went ahead with their work with the blessing of the Church and the power of God.Just because greats like John Bunyan achieved things as did Billy Graham it doesnt mean that wrong structure hasnt got in the way of Church equipment.Many people have not been rose to their potential in a timely fashion because of our wrong structures and authority.
An Apostle will quickly have to move out of his Church and form another Church because of wrong authority causing another unwanted but nessacary split in the Church.He will be lost to the members of his former Church also.
The role of Pastor has clearly usurped its position in the gifts in the modern Church and has to be reigned in for it to function properly.
What you are saying is that proper Church structure and proper Church authority doesnt matter ,its going to be all right on the night and Pauls exhortations that wolves would come in after he had gone doesnt really matter.The Church deosnt need protection or guidance,the Church will operate just as well with or without proper order and Authority.
The only thing Peter had on his mind the line before the outpouring of the "POWER"of God on Pentecost was we have to get the structure back in line before Pentecost.

The fact is we have a layity class and the majority dont even know that they are part of it.They do not understand their identity in Christ as being a Royal Priest.If all we need is revelation then lets throw the bible away altogether and God will reveal without it.Lets forget about teaching they dont need it ,they will know without being taught!Layity identity does have a negative effect on Church Growth and equipment no doubt about it and God uses people to point out things to other Christians ,staff

What you are saying is that it doesnt matter about the proper order of the gifts and Paul needed not have bothered explaining about them as they would have worked anyway.

Out of all the Apostles, Paul was given a special revelation of Church. He writes on how a Church operates. I never said we can ignore the pattern. As I said I am part of a Church that follows the perfect Biblical pattern.

The difference between you and me is,
1. You blame the Church structure for the people who do nothing or Layity class. I blame the people, if they have true love of God they will never sit idle and be satisfied by once in Sunday Church service.
See I have mentioned here that I am part of a Church that has a biblical Church pattern. But no one was interested in knowing more about such a Church, instead all are only busy in blaming the existing prevalent Church pattern. I believe this is the cause for people sitting idle and blaming the Church structure. This shows that even though people are passing judgment on existing Church Structures, none is interest in knowing any existing Biblical Church patterns nor interested in forming one. The same is the case with all your so called layilty class. They are neither interested in knowing what is right nor will take an action to join one. They are bound to be deceived.

2. You believe that people who are gifted to minister in Church are not effective able to do their service because of existing Church structure. I disagree with this. Throughout the history of mankind, taken from the Bible, all Godly gifted men suffered rejection. Jesus himself was rejected by those whom he came to save. He was rejected by the religious structure of his time. Same with all Old Testament Prophets, they were rejected by religious priests of their time. But God mightily used everyone, including Jesus.

The rejection is not new to Christianity. God trains his selected men through rejection. That is what breaks them and makes them a useful vessel of God.

In summary, instead of blaming the existing religious Church structure, let us examine how we are progressing the kingdom of God. Are we willing to start a Church that is Biblically sound in pattern? Are we willing to humble ourself and join one by praying to God to show one?

Hi Sree,
The problem I have with your arguement is that you are ignoring scripture on Structure and Order and saying its irrelevant.What Paul said about the gifts irrelevant,what Peter said before pentecost irrelevant.

This isnt about rejection or training through rejection which alot if not all of Gods Prophets go through.When Paul listed out the gifts it was for a reason.You are saying it doesnt matter.
We can have any old Church structure and it will work because the gifts will come through in the end!Paul needed not have bothered talking about Structure or anything really as in the end it doenst matter as it will be all right on the night.
When the Churches in Revelation were given their report cards some did some things right and some things wrong,he pointed out things that they may not want to hear.He still pointed it out.All the Churches functioned at one level or other.
My post is clear the position of Pastor in the Church is incorrect in the modern Church and it is being tolerated.
If the position of Pastor is in the correct position and it has no consequences, why has your own Church a different structure?Why has or is your Church more biblical than the other Churches if structure doesnt matter.Why follow the perfect biblical pattern ,if it doesnt matter.
The majority of Church goers dont even know they are part of a layity(an unbiblical division)
Jesus threw over the tables of the money changers in the temple and pointed out how wrong the system was.I am only pointing out how wrong the system we have now compares to what Gods best is and you are taking issue with it,
staff

Hi Sree,
One other thing I missed is that all people in the Church are gifted to Minister not just a few,All are gifted,staff

The Pastor is the new Apostle.

This has been true ever since some really good and godly men decided "the gifts are not for today" and the "Apostles and prophets all died out in the first century, they were only there to bring us the bible".

With this kind of eschatology and the removal of apostles and prophets from the scene of Church life the Pastor became the reigning Apostle among pastors...and we too have said at one time or another "Pastor So-and-so has spawned so many Churches he really is an apostle in his own right".

This very thinking perpetuates the continued absence of apostleship in the body of Christ...and if there are any, they are crowded into one Church. The N.A.R. New apostolic reformation seems to say 'there are apostles today' but the remainder of mainstream denominations...even non-denominations don't see the importance or necessity of apostolic gifting.

Part of this is because Staff is right in saying poor teaching and poor Church government patterned after the CEO board room model (Moses model) crushes it from the start.
Either the board of elders would refuse the pulpit to anyone calling themselves or hinting at apostolic gifting.
The Pastor in Charge is not going to just 'hand over' the pulpit to some upstart no matter how gifted namely because if this guy is a bomb he's left to pick up the pieces.

Secondly a real prophet or apostle may not be as seeker friendly, Church-hospital-minded, your-best-life-now, we-follow-our-old-tradition, minister. In fact, truth be told, if a real one did show up chances are he would never see the same pulpit twice.

Yes, we are afraid of the consequences of a real apostle or prophet because they will tell us...pack up your stuff and move to Myanmar with Francis. Probably not near to the extent we think they might...but who wants to take chances?

We have machinery in place, we have a mindset in place, we have a culture readily willing to permit a church with 3 hymns a sermon and out by noon to the buffet. No evangelism necessary, no radical sacrifice wanted, no extremism required and especially no 'first century stuff' where books are burned, folks are persecuted, fortunes lost, slave or free Christ is your King and you are a bond-slave.

Along with the Apostle and prophet their graves are also filled with the first century ideas of Christianity. It's a clean and convenient way to build a more suitable Church befitting the modern mind...God have mercy.

Hi Glory and Grace,
Thats a whole different discussion that has been replayed over and over whether the gifts of Apostle and Prophet has died out than what Im talking about.My comment on that is if the gifts of Apostle and Prophet died out then the saints of the first century were equiped and we are considerably less equiped.Also the word of God says "God does nothing without first telling his Prophets" so then we are left with God doing nothing for 2 thousand years! or the word of God not being correct.I do believe we have and I have seen myself Prophets in the modern church.As for Apostles I think we have types of Apostles in the sense of a Church planter but not with the Authority of the first Century Church as regards to doctrine or disipline.
To me the Pastor is not the new Apostle even if their was no Apostle or Prophet the role of Pastor still usurps proper Authority as Evangelist is a higher role in the order.Its funny the Evangelist didnt die out ??all things being equal it should have,

How and ever we do have a division that should not be in the Church between Clergy and Layity ,whatever the history of how we got here and whether certain gifts exist today or not.This is the place we find ourselves in today 2020 .
Christ died so that their would be no ungodly division in the Church and that it would function correctly.
I am not putting forward a solution to the problem.Only a souvereign move of God by his Holy Spirit can change the situation.I am only asking people to recognize and acknowledge the position we are in and not to kick against the goads when God decides to move,
staff

The biblical distinction between office holder 'Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, Teacher' and non-office holders is important to recognize as God gifted and placed into his body these 'gifts' for not all are apostles or prophets...in fact very few are.
This distinction cannot be construed as "Clergy vs Laity" in the sense you are using it.

The biblical distinction between Elder and Deacon cannot be construed as "Clergy vs Laity"

The biblical distinction between those who 'rule' as have been given a measure of rule 2 cor 10:13 and those who do not have that measure cannot be construed as "Clergy vs Laity"

The biblical distinction between those who are gifted " 1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" and those who do not or have not these gifts cannot be construed as "Clergy vs Laity"

Without becoming tedious I think it's important to recognize and submit to one another according to our giftings.

It seems (without going into Church history) that your concern deals mostly with the non-submission to one another giftings. In this it seems the dirty-deeds are being done.

Namely the despising of prophecy, the in-admission of the office of Evangelist, Prophet or Apostle. The relegation of congregational members to an "unlearned and ignorant" status therefore if a leader wants their opinion he will give them one to repeat back.
The rule of an eschatological position among leaders that requires conformity equal to or exceeding the essentials of the Christian faith.

So if I am reading all of this correctly, at the end of the day the real culprit is human desire for power over others. Afterwards the uses of Theological means to accomplish this end.

Hi GloryandGrace,
Just for clarity I will repeat why I am saying their is Clergy/Layity divide in the modern Church
1.
We use terminology(which is structure in itself) that is unbiblical and causes division
Such as "full time minister" and "In the ministry"
By using and accepting these identifications we are saying their are two types of Christians in the Church but Corinthians says "to each one".Everyone is gifted,all are ministers,all are full time.

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good"

2.
Paul said "I Paul an Apostle".We are calling people by their giftings we are saying "I the Apostle Paul" except the normal on a Sunday morning is not an Apostle its "I the Pastor Paul" or "Pastor Joe"
The crazy end of the spectrum is saying "I the Prophet Graham".By calling the leader Pastor instead of his name we are creating a layity class.We still respect his leadership and his gifting though.
3.
We have elevated the gift of Pastor above the order and importance laid out by Paul.By doing this the gifts no longer work correctly.The "hand" is no longer acting the way a hand should but is acting like the "foot" etc
Because of this the saints are not being equiped properly
Ephesians says that the gifts working in unity and order are for the following:

"for the equipping of the [d]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [e]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [f]which belongs to the fullness of Christ."

The Consequences if the gifts are not working together in unity will be the OPPOSITE of the scripture below
Ephsians
"As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [h]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [i]speaking the truth in love, [j]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [k]by what every joint supplies, according to the [l]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love."

The Opposite of above:
A:We will remain children
B:We will be tossed about by waves and carried by every wind of doctrine,by trickery of men etc
C:We will not grow up in all aspects of him the head Christ
D:We will not be held together properly and their will be disunity
E:The body will not be built up in Love

Consequences of wrong identity in the Church:

The Pastors will identify as "being in the ministry" and the Congregation will become "an audience" rather than part of the body.The audience will not see themselves "as being in the ministry" which is unbiblical.

This may look on the surface of it a small thing but in fact I believe its the greatest challenge of the modern Church,
The Church needs to start working in order and unity for the equipping of the saints,otherwise the equipping of the saints will be haphazard at best,
staff
P.s One little but important fact is that unity is never mentioned as far as I can see except in relation to the working of the gifts.