Rodney Howard-Browne: A 2nd attempt at a documented and scripture discussion

OK... the last thread about Rodney Howard-Browne became a fiasco. My apologies for my part in not understanding the "rules of engagement". Hopefully we all now understand what Todd would like to see.Now... I'm going to kick this thread off with a quote from Charisma Magazine. In this paragraph there is a quote to them from Rodney Howard-Browne (hereafter referred to as RHB) to Charisma Magazine, and also a quote from RHB's own book."'Either You come down here and touch me, or I will come up there and touch You,' he prayed in desperation. Suddenly, his whole body felt like it was on fire. He began to laugh uncontrollably. Then he wept and began to speak in tongues. 'I was plugged into heaven's electrical supply,' he later wrote in his book, The Touch of God. 'And since then my desire has been to go and plug other people in'" (Julia Dulin, "Praise the Lord and Pass the New Wine," 8/94, Charisma, p. 22).I would like to focus on the bold text.While that quote alone is not a "false teaching" in and of itself, it is inplying a false concept of God. It is in effect denying the Holiness and Righteousness of God. It's bringing God down to a level that He is not on.It should also be noted that RHB was not offering to "touch" God in a loving manner. His statement is a threat to God.This type of concept of God is not new to Word-Faith. I heard numerous teachers in W-F say similar things when I was involved in W-F. How does RHB's statement about how he talked to God line up with scripture concerning how the men of old treated God? Let's take a look...Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him...Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. Jos 5:14-15 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. 2Ch 20:18 And Jehoshaphat bowed his head with his face to the ground: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem fell before the LORD, worshiping the LORD. Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke. Eze 3:23 Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face. Eze 9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? Eze 11:13 And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou make a full end of the remnant of Israel? Eze 43:3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face. Eze 44:4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face. Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. Mat 17:5-7 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. Mat 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Interesting that even Jesus "fell on His face" when praying the Father - Krispy)Luk 5:12 And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last...Now... someone is surely going to come on here and want to take this thread off the topic by stating that the verses I just posted proove that being so-called "slain in the spirit" is biblical. WRONG. Notice in every instance I sited the people fell on their face in worship. The exact opposite is true when people are supposedly "slain in the spirit" today... they fall over backwards... and at times laugh and bark like dogs. These verses do not proove anything about being "slain in the spirit" except that it is not the same thing. Being "slain in the spirit" is extra-biblical... and therefore by the very definition, is unscriptural (meaning it isnt in scripture).Now that we have that out of the way....Some may ask "Didnt Job challenge God?". No, he did not. Yes, he did question God. He asked God why these things were happening... but he never stopped trusting and serving God. It's ok to question. My kids are free to as me why I make decisions concerning them... but not challenge me on them. Job asked questions of God... And God answered him... He said "Job, where were you when I created everything???" In other words... who are you to think that I'm not in control here? I created everything, dont you think should be able to trust Me? Since I created everything, then I am able to allow anything to happen that I want to have happen.Thats called SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.By contrast, RHB's statement "Either You come down here and touch me, or I will come up there and touch You" indicates that he feels he can make demands on a HOLY and SOVEREIGN God. Not only that but it also shows a complete lack of fear of God.And we all know that Proverbs 1:7 says "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."Hopefully this is all within the confines of the "rules of engagement"... and hopefully Todd will participate.I've done my best, and it's taken well over an hour. I have to head to the gym now... have fun with this!Krispy

Sorry... I needed to remove what I wrote here because I said something incorrect... ignore this post...Krispy

With all the history of our interaction you will hopefully trust my heart when I say this is knitpicking childishness. Think that if you wish, Zeke... this will not be the only quotations from RHB that I will be bringing up. I would advice that you exercise some patience before dismissing me.Sounds like they were both desperate for God to move in their lives. It seems that you have to make an appointment to speak to your Father and not having the amazing privlege of pouring out your heart to him.Job poured his heart out without disrespecting God. And as far as Genesis 32:26, Jacob did not threaten God... you're comparing apples to oranges here. The commentaries I have, and the studies I have done do not conclude that the "man" Jacob was wrestling with was God, but an angel. There is a vast difference. If it was God, then it was the only time that God confronted a man face to face... and the man didnt fall on his face. It would be completely out of synch with the rest of scripture.Apparently the Bible translators did not consider this man to be God either ... notice none of the nouns for this man (man, thee, thou) are capatilized.You're making a large stretch there, my friend.Krispy

I just want to clarify for everyone that this will not just be a discussion about the original quote from RHP in the original post... I am building a case here that will show that he is a false teacher... and more than that, this will be an honest (and civil) look at the Toronto Blessing and Brownsville Revival... both of which RHB is very involved with. Be patient as this thread develops... it will take some time. Zeke kinda misunderstand where I am going with this (grace to you Zeke). I'm merely taking my time building a foundation for this discussion.Hopefully most here will find this approach refreshing... I know I do. Too many times we come at these things with a shotgun when we really need a scalpel...Please jump in and add comments... even if you disagree... but dont just disagree and call me names. Show me in the Bible why you disagree. After all... the Word of God is the Final Authority.Krispy

Sorry... I needed to remove what I wrote here because I said something incorrect... ignore this post...I have already spoke to a few people privately on this matter that is unacceptable to edit messages and delete the entire text. You can add an EDIT: with textThat would be the only plausible situation to edit other then small spellling mistakes etc.. If you are speaking so quickly and rashly to have to edit your message then that could be an adomination to slow down and prayerfully post.As for the rules of engagement the rules that Todd stipulated are not the rules that necessarly have to be taken. And this second thread is excluding todd's participation by his own consent. So please just discuss these matters as you see fit in the Lord.

The commentaries I have, and the studies I have done do not conclude that the "man" Jacob was wrestling with was God, but an angel. Krispy, I trust you hold to the Deity of Christ, hence allow me to quote Genesis 32:30"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared".in the previous six verses, the only Person he was "face to face" with was the "man" he wrestled with.Krispy, there are many theophanies in th eOld Testament, where the pre-incarnate Christ came down to earth.Jacob, as I read it and feel it in my spirit was at the end of himself, there was no more fleshly conviving he could do, his brother Esau , in an unknown frame of mind was coming for him, with 400 men, maybe bent on blood, pillage and rape, Jacob didn't know his brother's frame of mind.Jacob was alone and desperate, just the point where God can begin to work. When I am weak and undone, that is when God can truly demonstrate His Works and His Power. Praise the Name of our God!!Desperate God hunger is the place where revival begins. Look at Moses, had one of the most awesome encounters with God , 40 days and 40 nights ALONE with God and yet in Exodus Moses asks God to show him His Glory, he had to have more of God , he was desperate, and you want to know something?do you know where I first heard a message preached on this twin OT Scriptural pillars, the encounter at Peniel and Mose's request for more of God......and they're relation to man's desperate need for God...I heard them preached in an audio message called "Holy Desperation" by Dr. Michael Brown, who WAS (past tense) the chief theologian at the Brownsville Assemblies during the revival.I cannot tell you how many times that message awakened and encouraged my cold , sometimes backslidden heart, thinking and praying on my brothers Jacob and Moses.Now I read how you plan on accumulating "evidence" on the "false" revivals at Toronto and Brownsville. careful, you might be kicking against the goads.Were lost sinners saved and lives transformed at these revivals?you bet they were.I'm reading (again) about the live of one of my heroes Evan Roberts, and there were many many opposers to the revival and to the ministry that God entrusted with dear brother Evan.Krispy, is there excess in revival? you bet there is, but oh Son of man, careful, never try to dictate terms of revival to God, let God be God and get out of the way.

It cannot be claimed with absolute certainty that the man Jacob wrestled was God incarnate. However, I will concede that it is somewhat subjective.Krispy

Okay, i just wanna state a few things then talk about the topic at hand. It seemed that many have kinda gone a little off track about this topic.But, i'd like to defend Krispy's comment about this. but also be on the other side.Many Word of Faith preachers, seem to have an anger towards God. It can be seen from any normal person. The "me, me me me' doctrine. Isn't that america's opinion?(me me me, all about the consumer ...etc).But, at the same time, weither he or anyone who has said that, 'come down here or ill go up there'. Has touched me. To a level of 'DEEP' desperation of God. I cried that out to God at once. (During the 3 nights i prayed for the Spirit).Revival, or false Revival. GOD's WORD DOESN'T RETURN VOID. PERIOD. People get saved during Benny Hinn. (not saying he is false). Billy Graham, and a new convert who says something from the Word.Now, let's go on to the next 'false' saying of Rodney.

In YeshuaIsMyGd's thread Any Tips? Wolf in Sheep Clothing ccchhhrrriiisss posted some observations which seem to validate the concerns Krispy and others are hoping will be examined in more detail.He begins'I've had an encounter with Rodney Howard Browne (as well as with a counterpart of his, Chris Harvey). I attended a "crusade" starring Rodney Howard Browne, and my heart ached because of the blatantly false displays -- and the accusation that much of these displays were "the work of the Holy Spirit." I felt so incredibly grieved inside of me!...'https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6251&forum=35#46442