Do you judge it superstition to insist on gender matching for physicians?

Particularly for certain sensitive seeming medical operations (such as those requiring uncovering of some sort). I personally judge it not as superstition (else it should equally be superstition to insist on non-sensual dressing - that we offend not). But I still wish to hear what fellow pilgrims have to say. I suspect I have a coronary artery disease that I recently attempted to have diagnosed at our local state Hospital. However, I could not honor my last appointment after learning that the diagnosis often involves partial uncovering. Fearing then that I could get cought up in a situation where healthcare providers of opposite gender are present - requiring then that I should thus voice my position lest I offend. Well while I could thus try for holiness' sake, I fear state healthcare providers should be less likely to meekly receive such requests - as opposed private providers (so I reckon) since the pacient pays the bill to the latter. And so reckoned it wisdom to thus dishonor the appointment. Of cause running the risk of sudden and perhaps fatal attacks while prayerfully looking for valid alternatives. As I still do not know what exact medication I should be taking (currently taking daily nitrate + asprin - which were seemingly recommended as a test treatment from one visit and appeared to help to a fair degree).

I am now looking at going via a private healthcare center - to at least try and have the diagnosis done (yes this route is often harder on budgets - with surgery prices being essentially unspeakable for those of low income). But all this, I reckon, could be patiently undergone as long as one is fully assured that it is their only valid option at the time as far as hevean is concerned. The peace of God be upon all that are his.

You are asking a very good question. I have undergone a procedure where the doctor was male but his assistant was female. I had no problem with it.

Sexual sins are matter of heart even though you sin against your body. The nudity in the case of medical procedure is not a sin as only your body is involved and not heart. Trust me when you see those needles and lights, sexual arousal is the last thing in your mind.

The verse I can think of is, Titus 1:15 - To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. If we could get the procedure done with clear conscience then it is not a sin.

Other than fear of sin, if you want to avoid the procedure due to feeling uncomfortable, then you can always try requesting your provider about it.

duplicate it seems

May I add that my main concern is the pacient (myself in this case) being seen uncovered by a healthcare provider of the opposite gender - who may then possibly go on to have lustful thoughts in their heart/mind (thus falling into sin). Do not you think I should also be held accountable of having voluntarily served a stumbling block to such a provider?

Hi Kervin:

I think Sree is right, it is no sin.

Nevertheless, Paul made it important not to violate your own conscience. If you cannot do it in faith, in short you cannot do it without sinning.

But Paul's answer to conscience interfering with liberty was knowledge. Truth is, God's revealing to your mind it's acceptable, ok, permissible to undress in this situation is really a matter of study and prayer for you.
Do you want the liberty Sree (and myself) have? Then you will need to look at the scriptures and pray until you are convinced of liberty.

But, you cannot let yourself be ruled by another man's conscience, if you have no interest in this liberty (as I call it to undress in this kind of situation) then abide as you are so that your faith and conscience together can glorify God in all things.

I pray God give your health, be at peace in whatever decision you make.

It may or may not be helpful to know that drs and nurses see hundred and thousands of patients if both sexes naked on a regular basis.

That being said, I would not want a physical from a female dr. But if I was knocked out on an operating table I could care less, nor would I care less in an emergency scenario.

I trust you are right, dear Todd that providers must see a lot of uncovered pacients on daily basis. The problem is that many of these are not Christian belivers and thus would have no holiness issue even if they may have lustful thougts in each occassion. But I understand that your position is essentially that it should be no issue before God to thus be uncovered.

I understand further that the position of dear Sree and Marvin is that God treats this situation as different from that of careless/sunsual dressing for example.

What I am struggling to understand is exactly how God would draw a line between the two cases. Does he maintain that we were cought up in a situation that demanded it? I suppose this is dear Marvin's actual position (if I am not getting him wrong).

P.S: And yes I trully have no business insisting on what God does NOT insist upon. So I am here truly looking to understand God's position on the matter - never that my position should be established to be that of God.

Kevin is in South Africa, so it is possible that some of their thoughts/perspectives on this could be a little different than ours. I respect his thoughts very much, and I am grateful he even considers this. God Bless You Brother

True dear Bill I am from South Africa - but should not Christian practices be standard across all nations?

Hmmm ... never enters my mind to make the gender of a physician the primary consideration.

I am concerned about their skill level concerning the procedure regardless of gender.

May I add that my main concern is the pacient (myself in this case) being seen uncovered by a healthcare provider of the opposite gender - who may then possibly go on to have lustful thoughts in their heart/mind (thus falling into sin). Do not you think I should also be held accountable of having voluntarily served a stumbling block to such a provider?

I am honestly not mature enough to answer this, as I have very little light in this area. Only in recent times, God has been shedding light on being a stumbling block to others, especially in sexual area. I am still relatively young though in my mid 30s.

This thread is a blessing to me, thank you for your post. It is wonderful to have an opportunity to fellowship with brothers like you who seek purity at all cost. I am thankful for SI as well.

Kervin are you saying that you do not have a choice as to what Dr to use? In a non emergency situation, here in the states we can generally pick who we want. Nurses, maybe not. But the main doctor, yes.

Q. "Do you judge it superstition to insist on gender matching for physicians?"

A. Absolutely not.

Q. "should not Christian practices be standard across all nations?

A. Yes. Absolutely!

Morality ought never to be compromised. Remember, our adversary the serpent is the most subtle and crafty enemy.

-------

Proverbs 7

A woman came out to meet him,with the attire of a harlot and cunning of heart.

With her great persuasion she entices him;with her flattering lips she lures him.

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Kervin,

Your conscience is steering you in the right course. Follow it!

@Solomon101: I fully understand your position

@Sree: Thank you for your additional reply

@Savannah: Thank you for your reply

@Todd: I believe we are allowed to thus choose. I have no guarantee however that such request can always be granted at state owned hospitals for two reasons though (may be a different case in the USA and others): (1.) A Christless provider will likely take personal offense (especially once you give details behind your request and they know they deal with both genders even in extreme cases) as you shall thus be condemning them as well. (2.) If the hospital do not have a provider of the desired gender at the time. I never saved the link but read somewhere online that hospitals are not obligated to always ensure that there are healthcarers of both genders at all times. I thought this applied to all nations but again I understand that in the USA perhaps there is always sufficient supply even in state owned hospitals.

Because you do not pay the bill at a state/public hospital, the provider may, while thus condemned, abuse their powers in many ways. Including telling you that you had better forget to have such request honored - even if it may be possible to reshadule you for a day where a provider of your desired gender may be available (if indeed there is non at hand at the time). With a private center however, this is not easy as the patient's fees pay the provider's salary. So even if they may thus be offended, they may have little to no choice but to assist you as per your request I reckon.

I do not mean to make the thread longer than it may be necessary but I am aswell moved to believe that we may be nearly (if not equally responsible) to make any possible preparations against emergency cases where we can resonably help it. But yes we can only look at this (if possible) once we are confortable with non emergency cases.

One other thing to remember is that people still die even in the hands of the best physicians. This then meaning that thus compromising (if we conclude it to be) may not always help us recovery anyways. But still die and go to meet the same God who demanded the virtue at our sick stage. Making it wiser to rather seek to know God's position on the matter rather than allow to be biased by a wish to save our lives or good health.

Is it that I take death any day? Certainly not! The very thought of death experience (and it associated pain) has been dreadful to me long before I was thus diseased. Never mind the thought of having to leave my 3 sons (oldest is now 7 and the yongest approaching 1). For the death concern I have at sundry times continued to plead with God for a painless one if at all affordable. And for the sons'concern I have been suplicating for grace that would overtake them even in my absense (should the Lord ever judge it wise to thus call me earlier).

So brethren may already see how unready to die I must be (humanly speaking) - and how I would rather exhaust all valid help I could get. But I understand that I am not allowed to compromise at any stage - even if it should be unto death :( Hence my starting the thread here to try and understand if I am not drinking a bitter cup that was never at all necessary. Never that I am just indifferent because I am just ready to die. Nor that I find being ill any fun feeling (as all may already know there be no such).

By the way I called my local private center and full Cardiologist checkup fee is twice+ the price I had in mind (around half of my monthly income). Yet another reason why I would gladly go with a state (public) hospital if it were not for the concern at hand. Apologies for a long and perhaps not perperly edited reply.

After reading over your words and seeing the different and somewhat conflicting replies you’re getting to your humble inquiry.... as a brother and fellow servant it behooves me to remind and encourage you to let your faith lead you not your fear 🙏🏻 Fear of any kind is powerful but an existential fear eliciting a self-preservation response is by an order of magnitude more powerful and difficult to manage so simply confess your weakness unto the Lord, and be reminded that it is in our weakness that His strength is made perfect 😇

Regarding your initial question of a medical professional who happens to be a female who might see your genitalia in a medical context (knowing during their training they had seen multiple) is indeed superstitious to believe that she would somehow be "tempted to lust” because she accidentally glimpsed your genitalia while conducting/assisting in a medical procedure. That is by definition superstition -

Be encouraged in this -
In Christ there is neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew,...
submit yourself to the Lord, resist the devil and he will flee from you 🙏🏻

But dear Fletcher, would you argue that those who are enslaved to perusing uncovered images (with a p word) ever gets used to it? Would not they soon or later cease and break away from such yoke due to disinterest? No but I hear of many who even seek thirdparty assistance to break away from the same yoke. And I fear many Christless providers must be enslaved to the same - and that as they thus deal with you, it may be another chance to endulge.

A husband remains essentially helpless before his wife even long after the wedding day. My argument is that I do not believe one can be trained enough to be fully immuned to lust. I understand females are said to be less vulnerable than males to uncovering but what about a case of a male provider and a female pacient then (given a man's greater vulnerability)? Does that perhaps better present my concern.

But yes when all earthly help fails, it is a perfect time to commend oneself wholly to celestial help. Be it for devine healing or for favor for needed medical care funds. Yes neither is this route guaranteed either though - but depends largelly on God's ultimate will - though that is no excuse for not supplicating I understand.

Hi Kervin: It seems we don't have any medical professionals on SI to chime in on the discussion, it might be insightful if there were a few to give their opinions.

While it is possible that all the 'lusting' which some infer may take place, it's also plausible that no such lusting is taking place. Medical professionals have seen and touch the human body in myriads of situations and untold numbers of people.

It is a slight on them to suggest that their profession is something of a lust trap, when the gender-mixed office is far more a trap than a surgery.

Is anyone getting naked in the office? No, but they don't need too, you might also consider that medical professionals are neither curious or aroused by their patients, they are in fact working and serving.

So while it is possible for anyone to lust, God gifts and graces individuals to do their jobs not because they are perfect in holiness but because they are his people.
Even when they are not born again, God is still ruling.

It's a trap to try and conceive of God's mind in all the varied situations because you simply don't have the knowledge he does to make the judgments he makes.

It is better to be simpler, entrust your self to God, trust that your actions are in obedience to him, you can really do no more.

Apologies if I so seemed to suggest. By God's mind I meant what he demands from us in the given case - just as with all other expectations he has from those he redeemed through Christ.

I agree there must be much lusting in setups such as offices - but this must again largely be because many factors such as sensual dressing and seductive conduct (above the fact that man is simply prone to this) exist and directly promote the same. And of cause for the carnal/Christless this is more of a privilege than an issue to be concerned about.

Yes a male may lust over a female who is decently covered - but this is never an excuse for females to neglect covering themselves sufficiently as then they are also being a stumbling block I understand (same goes for females to males). But again the Christless do not have these obligations for example.

I do not think it an issue (fault on my part) if any female may see me walking down the road and somehow begin to have lustful thoughts - as long as I am certain that I did not voluntarily or negligently pave a platform for such by my dressing or conduct. But I fear this is different in a ward where I voluntarily uncover.

And yes I agree the providers may not literally lust over each pacient but because lust is a thing of the heart, you never know if you have been amongst those they lusted over after your visit. I believe there is hope on a Christian provider (as opposed to Christelss one) when it comes to overcoming lust. But I have yet to hear/see a Christian provider say without blushing that they can handle patients of all genders in all various uncovering extents with no problem.
Brother L.Ravenhill found a fault in a young man who confessed to be struggled with lust after discovering that the same hangs around the beach (crowded with ill covered folks amongs whom as females) at sundry times. Why you might ask. Well becuase that, dear Marvin, is a lust trap - one more farocious than an office enviroment I would maintain. Why then cannot we say the same of a ward? So far, I am convinced providers who handle all genders even in sensitive cases simple lack discretion :(

All that said, I am still open to a well supported justification that gender matching is not necessary in a healthcare ward.

HI Kervin: Thanks for the great response. We're on the same page in regards to all the points you made in your several posts.

The last statement..."All that said, I am still open to a well supported justification that gender matching is not necessary in a healthcare ward".

This seems to step away from matters of your conscience into the conscience of others who may as a nurse or doctor work/examine/attend opposite gender patients.

I don't recall restrictions placed upon the general medical practice. Specialized ones as well, male doctors attending the birth of children has been normative since who knows when.
Yes, we all know there are specialized ones according to gender but not for the reasons you've stated.

As I said, you cannot be ruled by anothers conscience, nor can you circumvent sin in another after you have been obedient to what you know.

"I am still open to a well supported justification that gender matching is not necessary in a healthcare ward."

Kervin,

No man is able to offer "a well supported justification that gender matching is not necessary in a healthcare ward."

It cannot be justified before our thrice Holy LORD God Almighty.

The only account we have of the delivery of children in the Bible, we find that it was by midwives.

Truth be told, most christian men would not have their wife behind closed doors examining another man.

I suggest that we all meditate upon His Word in
Romans 12:2;

"And do not follow the customs of the present age, but be transformed by the entire renewal of your minds, so that you may learn by experience what God's will is, that will which is good, well-pleasing and perfect."