The Second Coming of Christ by Zac Poonen

Hi SI
So I just want to point out in my opinion that anyone like Zac who preaches or teaches about the Tribulation without understanding Elijah in the end times cant possibly be a fully credible teacher or preacher of tribulation eschatology.
If you dont understand Elijah properly then you cant understand properly
1:Why and what the 3 1/2 years is about
2:The Two Witnesses and their role
3:The Antichrist
4:Elijah and the Rapture.

It is clear from scripture also that Jesus says "They did eat they did drink ,they did give in marriage ,they planted,they sowed etc etc "UNTIL THE DAY" Lot left Sodom and Noah went into the Ark ,it will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed

Not unless you do incredible gymnastics with what is plain and obvious scripture could the people be eating ,planting ,harvesting ,marrying etc just after the greatest tribulation the world has ever scene because the Scripture says "immediately after the tribulation" .In using Lot and Noah as examples Jesus was describing two things 1:everything was going on as normal eating drinking marrying all was normal and no one was expecting any kind of judgement
2:Judgement would come immediately after Lot was taken out of his situation and Noah and his family were safely in the Ark.

Their is no way in the wildest of scripture intrepretation that just after the "The Great Tribulation" is the world living as normal or as nothing has happened.

We with Covid 19 a minor scratch compares to the Tribulaton will find it difficult to get back to normal ,how infinitely more difficult would it be to get back to normal living directly or immediately after the Great Tribulation,staff

Zac's Qoute:

When will Christ's coming take place? Jesus answered that too: "Immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29,30). Many believe that Christ will rapture His saints before the tribulation. But there is not a single verse anywhere in Scripture that teaches that. That is a doctrine of men. Jesus Himself clearly stated that His coming would be after the tribulation. The events mentioned here in 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 are exactly the same as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:30, 31: Jesus appearing in the clouds with the angels and a trumpet-sound, and the saints being taken up to meet Him.

Ha! Well I guess I’m in the "wildest interpretation” club 🤷🏽”â™‚️
I really do believe it exactly as Jesus spoke it, and feel much as you do
" incredible gymnastics with what is plain and obvious scripture " for how you formed your view 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Jesus is not giving conflicting testimonies of the time nor is He playing tricks with His people,...
consider "as it was in the days of Lot” .... so what was it it like in the days of Lot and what was his testimony?
Well it was quite a "tribulation” for Lot, but not for the ungodly inhabitants of Sodom, they loved their sin and didn’t want to be delivered from it- so here we have two completely different experiences of the same culture, with one being vexed by it and another reveling in it ... so when Jesus says
" 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

It makes perfect synchronistic sense to me -
The tribulation (in my understanding) will be experienced differently depending on your spiritual alignment just as we see in 2 Peter 2:
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Here we find the testimony of Lot was in fact "vexed” just as it will be [ is ] with the righteous in that day because of the "new normal” or the normalization of sin within the culture.
So was it a "tribulation” for those whom were being captivated by the sin of their day? Or was the "tribulation” primarily (if not exclusively) for Lot ...?

[for me] it’s quite simple and without contradiction as there are two different experiences of the same event just as His return will be a time of rejoicing for the saints and a terror for the ungodly... A joyful "saving” from the situation for the righteous and a shocking end of the "party” for the wicked.

The testimony of Noah in his day was much the same in that, until destruction came, they didn’t want or seek deliverance but sought to further indulge themselves in their fleshly endeavors but all the while Noah preached righteousness and did the works prescribed to him by the Lord :)

What I (personally) found compelling was the intercession that was made,... we would do well to do the same 🙏🏻

Hi JFW,
Then according to your view we have not one thing to worry about as if you are from God you will be saved out of the tribulation!

I am agreeing what you said about Sin but my point is the condition of the Earth!
The Earth is fine ,its producing plants ,it has clean water,its prosperous with marrying and giving in marriage,it has abundance then immediately Jesus comes as soon as Noah gets in the Ark and Lot is taken out of Sodom.

So the Tribulation according to your view is a time of Earthly abundance an abundance of life and an abundance like in Noah and Lots time of Sin.The abundance enjoyed is by the Godly and the Ungody(except for the sin)
The gymnastics comes when you try and say that the tribulation is a the worst time in Human history worse than world wars 1 and 2 for example.

So my questions are to you
Will we be eating and drinking and making merry in the Tribulation?
Will the world be a prosperous place similar to today during the tribulation?
Altough Christians will be living in a "Sinful world " similar to Lot and Noah is that the height of the Tribulation for Christians?(afterall Noah and Lot had plenty to eat and drink)
Will God be be Judging throughout the Tribulation such as bowl,vials etc ?
yours staff

What about people that get saved during the tribulation? If to become saved means you are no longer subject to wrath shouldn't they then be immediately raptured out of the tribulation if they are saved during the tribulation?

AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Straight from the words of Jesus, AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days tells us all we need to know. The trumpet of I Thess 4:16 is the resurrection trumpet of I Cor 15:52 at which we shall ALL be changed, not all those will be changed who were left over from a secret unseen coming 7 or so years before. The same trumpet as Matt 24:31.

Brother Greg, A few of the plagues affected Goshen. Second, it’s hard to imagine an economic collapse that won’t affect all people, especially in those who refuse the mark of the beast. Additionally, the persecution of Christians will be intense. Wrath or not, they will indeed suffer and they must endure in faith to be saved.

Second, it’s hard to imagine an economic collapse that won’t affect all people, especially in those who refuse the mark of the beast. Additionally, the persecution of Christians will be intense. Wrath or not, they will indeed suffer and they must endure in faith to be saved.

I do not believe going through an economic collapse is persecution or even a tribulation for a Christian. It is tribulation from a worldly perspective, but not to a Christian. If there is an economic collapse, a Christian might lose his bank account, so what? He might lose his stable job, so what? A Christian will not be affected by an economic collapse, because he is not living for the Economy!

But during those times, people's hearts will be hardened and they will persecute Christians. A Christian will be prevented from gathering with a fellow believer, prevented from following his faith openly. These are real persecution. Church will go through it.

Thanks for the questions:)
Yes
Yes
Yes
Though each/all happens synchronistically or chronologically there is also a layering of the experience by individuals. So caveats abound...
We have the scriptures detailing an objective (decreed by God) series of events while at the same time a variety of subjective experiences by the individuals each with a personal nuance which, in my understanding, is primarily based on an individual’s disposition relating to that specific occurrence.

Hi Greg,
Church history is not scripture and its many believers will suffer martyrdom whether or not they are pre or post trib believers.
Even if the wrath of God comes at the end of the tribulation the Chronology is off way off.
Also the Tribulation is eating and drinking and marrying just as Noah did and just as Lot did .Noah and Lot endured difficult times because of sin and unbelief, even persecution but their was not any tribulation going on.
The time line and the condition the Earth is everything here.
Lot Time = GOOD Time ,Eating and Drinking and Sin .Immediate judgement
Noahs Time= Good Time ,Eating and Drinking and Sin.Immediate judgement

Your Timeline =Tribulation for the most part of the 7 yrs lets say 6 yrs and 6 months that doesnt effect eating and drinking and giving in marriage ,that doesnt effect plant growth or doesnt effect the water systems with no world wars going on ,nothing bad
Noah and Lot werent Martyred so we can rule that out too
Then for the last 6 months lets say the wrath of God is poured out but nothing happens the believers because they are protected like Noah in the Ark ,
Then why all the talk of getting ready and being prepared when the trib is really nothing for the believers ?
Why is it then called the tribulation if everything is going on just as normal?
Jesus highlighted two things clearly in his examples 1 Everything was going on just as normal and 2 Judgement came immediately after the believers were safe.

In your timeline Jesus coming and the Wrath of God would have to be the same thing or happening at the same time?
urs staff

Hi Sree.
Jesus is pointing out two clear examples both examples pointed out two things that were the same

Normality and sudden Judgement

Lot or Noah didnt lose their Jobs or homes and had plenty to eat and drink ,they worshipped God .
It was normality for all not just the unbelievers but all believers and unbelievers.Everybody was eating and drinking and planting and sowing neither examples distinguished otherwise as it was in the days of Noah and Lot .Both Lot and Noah were eating and drinking too.
One last thing the Tribulation is not persecution,we may have persecution during the tribulation but we always have persecution ,staff

" There shall be great tribulation. Great, indeed, when within the city plague and famine raged, and (worse than either) faction and division, so that every man's sword was against his fellow; then and there it was that the hands of the pitiful women flayed their own children. Without the city was the Roman army ready to swallow them up, with a particular rage against them, not only as Jews, but as rebellious Jews. War was the only one of the three sore judgments that David excepted against; but that was it by which the Jews were ruined; and there were famine and pestilence in extremity besides. Josephus's History of the Wars of the Jews, has in it more tragical passages than perhaps any history whatsoever.

(1.) It was a desolation unparalleled, such as was not since the beginning of the world, nor ever shall be. Many a city and kingdom has been made desolate, but never any with a desolation like this. Let not daring sinners think that God has done his worst, he can heat the furnace seven times and yet seven times hotter, and will, when he sees greater and still greater abominations. The Romans, when they destroyed Jerusalem, were degenerated from the honour and virtue of their ancestors, which had made even their victories easy to the vanquished. And the wilfulness and obstinacy of the Jews themselves contributed much to the increase of the tribulation. No wonder that the ruin of Jerusalem was an unparalleled ruin, when the sin of Jerusalem was an unparalleled sin””even their crucifying Christ. The nearer any people are to God in profession and privileges, the greater and heavier will his judgments be upon them, if they abuse those privileges, and be false to that profession, Amos 3:2.

(2.) It was a desolation which, if it should continue long, would be intolerable, so that no flesh should be saved, v. 22. So triumphantly would death ride, in so many dismal shapes, and with such attendants, that there would be no escaping, but, first or last, all would be cut off. He that escaped one sword, would fall by another, Isa. 24:17, 18. The computation which Josephus makes of those that were slain in several places, amounts to above two millions. No flesh shall be saved; he doth not say, "No soul shall be saved," for the destruction of the flesh may be for the saving of the spirit in the day of the Lord Jesus; but temporal lives will be sacrificed so profusely, that one would think, if it last awhile, it would make a full end.

But here is one word of comfort in the midst of all this terror””that for the elects' sake these days shall be shortened, not made shorter than what God had determined (for that which is determined, shall be poured upon the desolate, Dan. 9:27), but shorter than what he might have decreed, if he had dealt with them according to their sins; shorter than what the enemy designed, who would have cut all off, if God who made use of them to serve his own purpose, had not set bounds to their wrath; shorter than one who judged by human probabilities would have imagined.”

Matthew Henry- Commentary on Mt 24

Hi JFW

The timeline just does not marry up ,look at it simply

Jesus gives two examples (Noah and Lot)so he can point out two things
The world is going on as normal and Judgement is immediate after the believers are safe(whatever that safe is can be debated)

Now look at the following scripture before Jesus comes the Sun will be darkened and the moon will not give of its light in those days.
How can things be going on just as normal eating and drinking and marrying as Jesus showed twice when the Sun is darkened etc? Also we can see below his coming is not immediate "IN THOSE DAYS" is mentioned which indicate a period of time and then after that the sign of the son of man which brings mourning and then Jesus comes on the Clouds

Jesus didnt say their will be mourning and no sun or moon he said their will be eating and drinking and normality.

The most probable timeline is normality -Jesus coming for the believers and Judgement beginning simultaneously (Tribulation )or immediately and then after the judgement the Sun and moon darkened .Whether that coming for the believers is being kept safe in an Ark or a rapture is debatable.

Matt
28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.…

Hi TMK
As it was in Noahs and Lots days
1 Normality for everyone including sin
2 Immediate Judgement

If their was normality then it cant be the tribulation .Tribulation is not normality
staff

Hi again JFW
Did you say YES to the following question?

Will God be be Judging throughout the Tribulation such as bowl,vials etc ?
staff

I don’t get you staff. Everything was more or less normal in Jerusalem until the Romans laid siege. That’s why Jesus told folks to flee when certain things started happening.

The reference to "one will be taken and one left” is not the rapture. The ones taken are dead”” where vultures are circling. Lk. 17:37.

Hi TMK ,
I am not saying that one left and one taken is the rapture ,nor do I believe that ad 70 was the ultimate fulfillment of the the tribulation.
What I am saying is that in Noahs and Lot case their was no seige and no worry at all until Judgement .The point about Noah and Lot was twofold 1:Eating and Drinking etc and 2 immediate judgement because thats what happened in both cases of Noah and Lot
The moment Lot got to safety Judgement and in Noahs case the very next verse after the lord shutting the Ark door was the flood waters,immediate judgement.
What I am saying is the Great Tribulation is a unique time in history unlike any other time in terms of ferocity and that the examples of people eating and drinking and making merry cant be in the great tribulation ,staff

I love your heart for Jesus :)))
Your commitment to what He has shown you in His word is well put forth and it isn’t my place to say you are right or wrong regarding your understanding of the prophetic works, that is Holy Spirits place. So I can only speak from the light I have, just like you.... it is just an opportunity for Him to show each of us more of the picture and point out specific things that we are to attend to.

To your question...
that’s one of the caveats, so yes but .... the judgments are in some cases remedial while in others punitive - so that’s one of the areas mentioned in a previous post where Jesus marked out the contrast between the groups in His dialogue.

Hope that helps to clarify:)

Hi Sree.
Jesus is pointing out two clear examples both examples pointed out two things that were the same

Normality and sudden Judgement

Lot or Noah didnt lose their Jobs or homes and had plenty to eat and drink ,they worshipped God .

Staff, I am not sure why you are responding to me when my post was not a response to you but to CoFG (Robert). I was answering him how a Christian will not be affected by Economic collapse because he lives for another kingdom. I was not even interested in getting into this argument of Pre vs Post trib.

I believe in Post Trib because that is what Scriptures say. But I am not someone who fights over this.

You place your whole argument based on the 2 statements made by Jesus but you miss the point that he was trying to make. Jesus never intended to mean that the time of Noah and Lot were normal times. Logically it cannot be a normal time. The time of Noah was a time when the earth was filled with Violence and every intent of man's heart was evil (Gen 6:5). The time of Lot, Sodom was filled with sexual perversion. But Jesus makes NO mention of these 2 prevalent things in the time of Noah and Lot. Ever Wondered Why? Because Noah was not involved in the Violence of his time and Lot was not involved in the Sexual perversion of his time. But something that Noah and Lot also did, which even people of his time also did, which is marriage, food, and drink. Noah got his children married, Lot too did (at least got them engaged), they both eat and did drink. But they were not carried away by these 2 events. Especially Noah did not get carried away, he knew the time of the judgment of God. But for the rest, it was a surprise.

So Jesus was simply pointing out the surprise element in the judgment during the time of Noah and Lot. He mentioned marriage, eating, and drinking because those were the activities that Noah and Lot did along with the people of their time. Yet they were watchful.

You are trying to make a theory out of something that Jesus did not mean. You have made your point enough here. We understand this subject is very passionate to you. I am too passionate about Church being the Body of Christ and how we should do our part in building the local Body of Christ. We all have topics that we are passionate about. I am not here to argue on the rapture and the time of it. Honestly the topic does not excite me!

Here is a short Youtube video if you want to learn more about this subject of Noah and Lot from my perspective.
https://youtu.be/wn-l2dBcsRQ