No one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him

What are we take from this statement?

Jesus said the one hearing the Father and learning from Him comes to Me. All who the Father gives Me will come to Me. No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.

Are we to take that God draws some and not others? Possibly, because many do take it that way. They do so sincerely and reasonably. They have read the same passages that you and I read - "I will have mercy upon I have mercy and I will harden whom I harden."

It is also clear that many are called and few are chosen. The scriptures are clear that receiving the truth is a clear indication of being in the elect. Repentance and faith are both spoken of as the gift of God. Does God offer the gift of faith to all? Paul wrote to Timothy that those who oppose him should be instructed in meekness, in the HOPE that God would grant them repentance...

What are we to make of these statements and how are we to understand them in relation to other scriptures such as:
"God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." and "He is not willing that any should perish?"

I have wrestled with these questions and recently reading through John chapter 6, there it was in plain black and white. Jesus knew those who had not believed from the beginning. When He was dealing with their objections, He acknowledged that He only received those who the Father gave to Him. Here in chapter 6 and in chapter 8, He somehow knew who did not love the Father and that unless they were of the Father, they would never believe Him.

While I was pondering all this, the mercy and grace of the Father unwrapped the enigma to me in such a way that it became so simple, so obvious.

Only those hearing the Father and learning from Him will ever come to Jesus. The only words Jesus ever spoke are the Father's words. He never spoke any word from Himself. Every word He spoke, He heard from the Father both what to say and how to say it. If someone was not willing to hear the Father and learn from Him - Jesus had nothing to offer them.

Jesus knew from the beginning of His ministry all those who did not believe. How? The Father raised up John the Baptist to prepare the way of the Lord, and filled John with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. John the Baptist was the Father's messenger who proclaimed repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Everyone who refused to hear John's message, was refusing the words of the Father. If they refused what the Father said through John, why would they receive what the Father said through Jesus?

Jesus knew also that the Father had spoken to Moses about Himself, and that Moses wrote about it in the Law. It was obvious to Him, that since the Father had sent Him, and those who claim to believe Moses would not receive Him, that they really did not believe Moses either.

Since they would not receive Him and He was sent by His Father, they were not of His Father, they were of their father the devil and the works of their father they would do. If they really loved the Father, they would love the Son whom the Father sent.

It is simple - those who receive Jesus have heard the Father and are learning from Him. He then leads them to the full knowledge of Himself through the Son. Those who will not receive the Son are really refusing to hear the Father who sent Him and gave Him the words to speak.

The Father sent John the Baptist to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the father and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous. When the Pharisees and lawyers refused to repent at the preaching of the forerunner sent by the Father to prepare the way - they rejected the purposes of the Father for themselves.

This is why Jesus knew that they would never accept what He had to say, because they had already refused the Father's purpose to prepare them to receive the Son.

mak

Thanks for sharing this brother, I have been waiting for a word like this. The logos calls out that which was chosen from the beginning according to the foreknowledge of God.

"...they had already refused the Father's purpose to prepare them to receive the Son."

Mak,

When & how, did those after John Baptist was beheaded, up and until this present day, refuse the Father's purpose?

Jesus said, "I am the way , and the truth , and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” Mt. 14:6

If the Father has drawn you, then you will believe His Son. Seems pretty clear to me.

Just thinking, but if the Father draws people and they reject His Son, that is their choice even though He knew from the foundations of the earth who would believe and who wouldn’t. Who can fathom God’s ways?

Simple me,
L

Savannah asked
"When & how, did those after John Baptist was beheaded, up and until this present day, refuse the Father's purpose?"

Luke 7:30
 οἱ δὲ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ οἱ νομικοὶ τὴν βουλὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἠθέτησαν εἰς ἑαυτοὺς μὴ βαπτισθέντες ὑπʼ αὐτοῦ

But the Pharisses and the lawyers rejected God's purpose unto themselves, not having been baptized by him."

The group that I was referring to was the audience to which Jesus was speaking. He knew that all the Jews who had refused John's testimony, would not believe His either.

Those who refuse to hear the words of Jesus, will not be judged by John's words, but the words of our Lord.

mak

Mak quoted:

"I will have mercy upon I have mercy and I will harden whom I harden."

Have you considered the second part of this verse? How does, according to Scripture, God harden those whom this verse speaks of above?

Jeff

This is a great question and I have been considering this for a number of years. There are two aspects that I continue to seek understanding on; Why does God harden? and How does He harden?

Jeremiah chapter 6 contains the Lord's plea to Israel through Jeremiah: verses 16-19 from the LXX
τάδε λέγει κύριος Στῆτε ἐπὶ ταῖς ὁδοῖς καὶ ἴδετε, καὶ ἐρωτήσατε τρίβους κυρίου αἰωνίους καὶ ἴδετε, ποία ἐστὶν ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀγαθή, καὶ βαδίζετε ἐν αὐτῇ, καὶ εὑρήσετε ἁγνισμὸν ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὑμῶν, καὶ εἶπαν Οὐ πορευσόμεθα.”  17 κατέστακα ἐφʼ ὑμᾶς σκοπούς, ἀκούσατε τῆς φωνῆς τῆς σάλπιγγος, καὶ εἶπαν Οὐκ ἀκουσόμεθα.”  18 διὰ τοῦτο ἤκουσαν Ï„á½° ἔθνη καὶ οἱ ποιμαίνοντες Ï„á½° ποίμνια αὐτῶν. 19 ἄκουε, γῆ, ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐπάγω ἐπὶ τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον κακά, τὸν καρπὸν ἀποστροφῆς αὐτῶν, ὅτι τῶν λόγων μου οὐ προσέσχον καὶ τὸν νόμον μου ἀπώσαντο
Translation - Thus says the Lord, stand upon the ways and perceive and ask for the paths of the Lord of the ages and behold what is the good way and walk in it and you will find purification to your souls. And THEY SAID - WE WILL NOT WALK. I stood watchman upon you, hear the sound of the trumpet, and THEY SAID WE WILL NOT HEAR. Because of this hear nations and the shepherds shepherding their flocks. Hear O earth, behold I bring upon this people evil, THE FRUIT OF THEIR REJECTION (turning away).

Who does God harden? - those who refuse to hear.

How does He harden? - By bringing upon them the FRUIT of their OWN WAY! God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows, that will he also reap.

Their way was the evil of not hearing His voice or the sound of the trumpet. They did not will to hear. They stiffened their necks against receiving correction.

So these are the people God hardened. And God brought THIS EVIL upon them - the fruit of their own turning away. He hardens whom He will harden.
They sowed "NOT-hearing" and reaped God's hardness. They sowed refusal to be turned back and reaped being given over to a depraved mind.

mak

For those who want to study the passages that speak about having eyes not to see and ears not to hear, so as to learn from them the implications of this condition.

Here are the references:
John 12:36-43
Matthew 13:10-17
Isiah 6:9-10
Isaiah 42:20
Isaiah 44:18
Isaiah 53:1`-2
Jeremiah 5:20-25
Jeremiah 6:16-19
Ezekiel 12:1-2
Deuteronomy 29:1-4

These passages speak of a condition that developed in the hearts of the people. Was it God who caused this condition or the actions of the people that caused this?
Or is it a combination of both?

mak

"The group that I was referring to was the audience to which Jesus was speaking."

So...are you saying that the Father doesn't prepare anyone else for His purpose,other than that group?

In other words, do I understand you correctly insofar as what you've stated in regard to the Father preparing for His purpose, that such is non-applicable to all others with the exception of this group?

Not at all - but that specific group is an example from scripture demonstrating that God’s purpose can be rejected. The purpose of God for those who heard John was to repent and be baptized. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected God’s purpose, whereas other people received the message and rejoiced.

Mak

"those who receive Jesus have heard the Father and are learning from Him."

I ask again, how does the Father and when does/did the Father, if at all, prepare those who receive Jesus?

This is a great question: There are several ways the Father prepares those who receive Jesus

The Law is put into effect to lead us unto Christ. This is one way we are prepared to receive Jesus. The Law acts as a guardian and steward until we receive the spirit of adoption by which we then cry out Abba Father

The voice of the one crying out in the wilderness is another way men were prepared to receive the Lord. John was sent to reveal the Christ to Israel. He came as a witness to the light, although he himself was not the light, he testified to the light so that all men might believe,

The light shining in the darkness is another way that God prepares men to receive the Lord. The true light that lights every man came into the world so that no one has to walk in darkness. Light makes manifest, and that Light came into the world to shine the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. Sadly, the god of this age has blinded the minds of those not believing, so that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ does not beam forth.

Another way that God prepares the hearts of men to receive is by speaking through messengers. Faith comes through hearing, and this hearing is through the word of Christ. God through various means and various times spoke to the fathers, but in these last days He has spoken to us through the Son. The Son is the full revelation of the Father, sent into the world to make the Father known. The Father spoke to the Son, and the Son spoke the Father's words that men might believe.

Another way that God prepares the hearts of men to receive the Son is through the works that the Father does through the Son. The works bear witness of the Father that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. Jesus told both the Jewish leaders and His own disciples to "believe because of the works." God manifested His glory through the works He did through the Son. He laid bare the power of His arm before the eyes of the people so that they could see His glory.

Another means through which God prepares men to receive the Son is by sending the Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. The Spirit bears witness and men also bear witness that Jesus is the Christ.

These are some of the means through which God prepares men to receive Jesus. He has placed us in this age and where we live upon this earth for the very purpose that we would seek Him, reach out for Him and find Him.

mak

Here is a passage from John that identifies why the people have sin. It links Jesus coming and speaking and doing works to the reason that the people have sin.

John 15:22-25
"I if did not come and speak TO THEM, they were not having sin, but now they have no excuse concerning their sin. The one hating Me hates My Father. (they rejected the person of Jesus and the words of Jesus - and by this revealed that they hate the Father)

vs 24 - If I had not done the works among them which no other one did, they were not having sin, but now they have also seen and have hated even Me and My Father rather in order that might be fulfilled the words, those having been written in the Law that "THEY HATED ME without reason."

"have seen" and "have hated" are both in the Perfect tense - it means that a process had begun, continued and is still ongoing. The people had been seeing, were seeing, and still are seeing. They began to hate, continued hating, and were still hating Jesus and the Father.

This passage ties the actions of the people over the period of time Jesus came, spoke, and worked to the reason they have sin. John used the "imperfect tense" for the phrase - "they were not having sin" The imperfect tense is the writer's way "replaying the events". It allows the reader to see what had been happening.

Jesus coming, speaking, and working - are all in the "aorist" tense. John used the aorist because the "time" or "when" the action happens is not the focus. The implication is that irrespective of time, Jesus coming, speaking and working and "not being received" rather being despised - is WHY people "HAVE SIN"

Not receiving - the coming, teaching, and working of Jesus is the reason SIN is reckoned to men. Once Jesus has come, spoken and worked - if the replay shows that He was not welcomed or received - the scriptures will be fulfilled - He was hated without reason."

mak

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me- - John 6:44-45

The Question. "” who does not hear and learn and why?”

The Holy Spirit , through Jesus, spoke these exact words as His answer in simple to understand terms:

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him......

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. - John 8:42

If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." - John 8:46-47

Question 2. " Jesus, who then does hear and learn?”

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. - John 10:25-27

The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us in these verses from John having
anticipated the very questions that spawned this and other threads. What God has declared simply must be received that way. No need to complicate or wrestle about.

Dear brother please receive this with the humor it is offered in.

You Wrote

"The Holy Spirit , through Jesus, spoke these exact words as His answer in simple to understand terms”....

As long as we can figure out which one of the five possible meanings of "will” -

I think you will get what I mean.

Mak

Thanks Mak. I’m not offended. I know you are being sincere. :)

May the Lord preserve among us the true spirit of honor towards one another.

The truths of God are like the vast ocean, we can only attempt to describe a very limited portion.

This is an element of simplicity to me - these words of Jesus.

"The lamp does not come in order to be set under a basket or a bed, but in order to be placed upon a lampstand." This statement in Mark immediately follows the Lord's explanation of the parable of the sower

Jesus is the light. He has not come to be hidden but to give light to all. He is the light that lights every man. This is the verdict - the light that makes manifest has come into the world, but men love darkness more than light because their deeds are evil.

For nothing is secret but for the purpose that it should be manifest and nothing hidden but for the purpose that it should be revealed. If anyone has ears TO HEAR - LET HIM HEAR.

And then His own summary - the one who HAS to him will be given, and the one who does not have, what he has will be taken from him.

This statement sheds light on the answer to the question the disciples asked Jesus about why He spoke to the people in parables.

The disciples had eyes that "are seeing" - they HAVE seeing eyes. They had ears that "are hearing" - they have hearing ears. This is why the mysteries of the kingdom of God had been, and continue to be given to them.

mak

Mak,

Pro 1:28

"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.

Pro 1:29

Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Pro 1:30

They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.

Pro 1:31

Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Pro 1:32

For the turning away of the simple will slay them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them;

Here is another thought from Scripture which describes the "hardening process." With the absence of God's protective nurture, those who have refused to hear, are now left to the tempter, who appeals to the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

Pro 1:31

Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Rom 1:24

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

Rom 1:25

who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Yes, Jeff,

These and many other passages throughout the prophets demonstrate God's genuine attempt to turn His own chosen people back to Himself in order to "have mercy" upon them and "heal their wrong ways."

When all of His prolonged attempts are rejected, He imputes upon them the fruit of their choices.

The result is that although He desires and promises mercy, He repents of the good He purposed to do, and brings the evil of their own way upon their heads.

mak

I was reminded how Paul spoke directly to this in Romans chapter 2

κατὰ δὲ τὴν σκληρότητά σου καὶ ἀμετανόητον καρδίαν θησαυρίζεις σεαυτῷ ὀργὴν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ὀργῆς

Translated: But according to YOUR hardness and unrepentant heart, YOU are storing up wrath to YOURSELF in the day of wrath.

And this statement follows what Paul says "WE KNOW" - that the kindness of God leads YOU to repentance.

This YOU is the very same YOU who is storing up wrath unto himself by HIS hardness and unrepentant heart.

Added: In this same passage Paul employs the dynamic grammatical tool of the Greek middle voice to direct the readers focus to the subjects role in relation to the action of the main verb

τοῖς δὲ ἐξ ἐριθείας καὶ ἀπειθοῦσιν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πειθομένοις δὲ τῇ ἀδικίᾳ ὀργὴ καὶ θυμός.a 9 θλῖψις καὶ στενοχωρίαb ἐπὶ πᾶσαν ψυχὴν ἀνθρώπου τοῦ κατεργαζομένου τὸ κακόν, Ἰουδαίου τε πρῶτον καὶ Ἕλληνος 10 δόξα δὲ καὶ τιμὴ καὶ εἰρήνη παντὶ τῷ ἐργαζομένῳ τὸ ἀγαθόν

Translation: But to the contentious ones, those unpersuaded by the truth, but the ones persuading THEMSELVES (present middle participle) in unrighteousness, anger and wrath. Tribulation and distress upon every soul of man the ones THEMSELVES working evil (present, middle, participle), the Jew first
and the Greek. But glory, honor and peace to everyone HIMSELF working the good. (again a present, middle, participle)

The grammar was carefully chosen to convey the reason for the anger and wrath was the subject's own participation in the refusing to be persuaded by the truth, and persuading himself in unrighteousness.

mak