Baptismal Regeneration

It's always been my view that water baptism is symbolic and does not actually save us. A man I've talked to recently holds the position that baptism is what brings salvation. I've seen some logical inconsistency in his arguments. The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. Paul said Jesus sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). He quotes the church fathers, which I do not hold as authoritative. Anything the church fathers say must be subordinated to scripture.

I value the ordinances (water baptism and the Lord's supper) but I see them as physical symbols only. The view that the ordinances are efficacious in themselves is heretical. I believe that what the apostles taught is a man is saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9), and that faith must be in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

I would rather ask someone about their personal experience i.e. do you have assurance of sins forgiven, do you know God, how is your prayer life, do you have supernatural love, peace and joy rather than argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or what color the virgin Mary's eyes were. So much of theological debate falls into this latter category.

So here's a question: I was baptized when I was 7 in an Anglican church and again of my own volition when I was 19 (just a friend and I). I didn't have assurance of sins forgiven until only a few years ago (I'm 34). I don't feel the need to be baptized again.

Does anyone here think I should?

I never had confirmation of sins forgiven from the Lord until I genuinely repented. That was after being a spirit filled believer for two decades.
I was also baptized as a believer twenty years before I began to walk in a life of repentance. I haven't experienced the Lord asking me to get baptized again though. That's only my experience.

David, that's my experience as well. I see baptism as an outward sign of inward grace. True, God commands it, and I want to be obedient to everything he tells me to do; however I feel no need to be baptized again.

It seems to me that the more formal a church or denomination gets, the more they emphasize the sacraments as a way of salvation rather than symbols.

Yes as Greg said it is commanded.
I was staying with friends in London who baptized me in a public place. The Lord confirmed to me afterwards of it's importance at what had taken place.

Nigel and David

Can you help me understand a bit more about what you mean by thee phrase "confirmation of sins forgiven?".
I have struggled and continue to struggle hugely with assurance of my own salvation. Are you saying that I must be lost because I haven't had a particular experience?

Mark

I would say for me it was more of a confirmation of eternal life not of sins forgiven both now and in the future.
I had previously had people telling me I was saved, and I did have the Holy Spirit working in my life. I hadn't been promised the confirmation of eternal life by the Lord though. Does the Lord use that uncertainty as a kind of Holy fear to keep us following Christ I wonder ? I don't know.
I'm glad you seem to be an honest person.

It was after I truly began to repent and be determined to change ... that I heard the Lord speaking to my heart about eternal life with Him.

Before this happened I did experience feelings of condemnation from the Holy Spirit. But these feelings happened when I wasn't walking in forgiveness toward others. So a Bible verse that would agree with this is : "condemn not and you will not be condemned". I was condemning others in my heart. But didn't know it until I had come out of that life and looked back on how I was behaving .. Maybe it was a feeling from the Lord just as a warning to me to turn my life around ? I'm not sure.
But it used to scare me that God would project those feelings to me.

Paul said we are "being saved". I think that means that we are still being saved out of the corruption of this present evil age.... both by the working of the Holy Spirit and also our willingness to follow the leading of the Lord to listen and obey Him.

Hi Mark. Knowing your sins are forgiven and that you have peace with God is definitely biblical and goes far beyond an emotional experience.

First we must believe by faith that Jesus forgives us of our sins, because He says "Whoever comes to me I will never turn away." (John 6:37) and "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

Secondly, God will confirm by His Spirit that you are His child with supernatural peace in your spirit: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1) and "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:15,16) and "The work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever." (Isaiah 32:17).

If you don't have this, ask Jesus for it. I can tell you from experience, He is good to His word.

Nigel,

I'm not a proponent of baptismal regeneration but I'm curious how you read this verse, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

Also, what is it that the one who believes and is baptized is actually saved from? Hell? The World?

In Christ,

David & Nigel - thanks four your thoughtful replies.

"If you don't have this, ask Jesus for it. I can tell you from experience, He is good to His word."

I ask almost daily, but don't feel I have this peace. I will keep asking til I receive, though.

God bless you Mark. Remember Jesus said whoever asks receives.
I'll be praying for you.

Ron, my position is that baptism is a sign that you are repenting and submitting to Christ. You could also paraphrase that verse "He that believes and repents shall be saved."

I think believers are saved from being enslaved to sin, from serving the devil, and from going to hell when they die.

Nigel,

Thanks for your reply. I believe that believing and repenting are two sides of the same coin but I don't think we have the authority to change that verse to say anything other than "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved..."

One other thought, I find it significant that Jews, Muslims, and Hindu's don't really have a problem with someone believing in their heart; but once they are baptized the persecution begins.

In Christ,

In the very early church there was no gap between believing and being baptized”” so much so that they were practically synonymous- as in Mark 16:16.

In other words, it was unheard of that a believer would not also be baptized (except in extreme circumstances like the thief on the cross). That is a modern day problem.

Just to clarify, according to the Bible a believer should be baptized if he or she can. I believe that. I also take communion. I value the two ordinances set out in the New Testament.

After the time of the apostles, formalism crept into the church. Priests and theologians twisted the scriptures, and salvation according to them was nothing more than eating a wafer and drinking juice, or being dunked in water. Augustine said that even if a drunken heretic baptized a baby it would be saved from hell (he believed if babies weren't baptized they went to hell, or purgatory) because of the faith of the church. (I'm not knocking Augustine, but come on.)

Just talk to your average church member and see if I'm lying. They've been baptized, taken communion etc. but talk to them about knowing God and they think you are speaking another language.

How about the first part of that verse (Mark16:16)? People always stress the baptism part, but do they truly believe?

I agree that belief is a prerequisite for baptism. Why would an unbeliever want to be baptized? I guess lots of reasons- peer pressure, "fire insurance” etc.

"Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."
Acts 2:41

Did Peter and the disciples do in depth interviews to determine if the 3000 truly accepted the message before baptizing them? We don’t know- we aren’t told that but I doubt it.

Their profession of faith and willingness to be baptized was all that was needed.

Baptism alone cannot save anyone. But any person who is truly saved and accepts Jesus as Lord will want to follow his commands and therefore should want to be baptized. It seems like in the days of the early church it was easier- if you got saved you got baptized in about .2 seconds. Now there might be months before a church has their next baptism service.

The way I see it, any christian can baptize a new convert.

Yes indeed!

After I gave my life to the Lord, I pondered whether or not I needed to be re-baptized. As a youth, I was baptized before I was even truly believed in God (but went through with it because my mom wanted me to).

The week after I was saved, I had already read the entire Bible. The idea of baptism seemed important. Initially, I baptized myself in the bathtub. I was concerned that it wouldn't really count (since it wasn't "public"). So, I later was baptized outdoors by a man of God.

I did have questions about why God would choose something like baptism. I questioned why ordinances would be important in the first place. As others pointed out, you come to Christ before you are ever dunked in water.

When John the Baptist initially questioned the need to baptize Jesus, our Lord replied that he was doing it to "fulfill all righteousness."

Ordinances are interesting things. Most churches adhere to baptism and communion. As earthly beings who sometimes think that we know the mind of the Lord, we see things as "cause and effect" or "if" and "then."

However, there were ordinances that go back to the Old Covenant. For instance, the idea of a blood sacrifice doesn't seem to make a lot of sense -- especially when understand the omnipotent and omniscient nature of God.

Yet, the very first sacrifice on Earth was carried out by God himself -- when the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and Eve to clothe them (Genesis 3:21). Prior to this, they had attempted to cover their nakedness by fastening an outfit by sewing fig leaves together (Genesis 3:7).

Apparently, the fig leaf clothes weren't enough. They told the LORD that they hid from him because they were "naked" (Genesis 3:10-11). So, God covered them -- and He used the skin of animals to do it.

I wonder if all ordinances are also a type and shadow. Baptism hearkens to the flood. Communion hearkens to the last Passover that our Lord celebrated with the disciples -- which, in turn, hearkens back to being saved from the final plague of death in Egypt.