Daniel's Prophetic Visions

Hi David (Doc),

You wrote in another thread:

Just last Wednesday, we finished going through the book of Daniel in our home group. If you study this book and have questions etc., I would be glad to share with you in any way I can. I come from a post-trib premillennial point of belief.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63348&forum=35

So, I am starting this thread to discuss Daniel’s prophetic visions.

You wrote:

The return of the exiled nation to the land and its eventual messianic redemption at the end of this evil age was a prominent theme of the prophets. This end-time scenario is impossible without a Jewish presence in the land. Therefore, the latter-day return of a Jewish populace to the region known today as Palestine (formerly Canaan) and the reemergence of the modern state of Israel is one of the most significant prophetic signs to transpire since the resurrection of Christ.

Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event.

Also,

Daniel's 70th week cannot have already occurred since it ends with the resurrection of the dead which occurs at Christ's second coming.

Are you referring to Dan.12:2?

Thanks and Blessings

I'm not trying to ignore you. I've just been busy. I'll try and make a reply soon.

Thank you.

No worries, David. Thank you.

SCRIPTURE FOR THE SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL

DAN. 9:24-27

NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE (NASB):

Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

NEW KING JAMES VERSION (NKJV):

Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.

KING JAMES VERSION (KJV):

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

YOUNG’S LITERAL TRANSLATION:

Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations.

And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.

BRENTON SEPTUAGINT TRANSLATION:

Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

And thou shalt know and understand, that from the going forth of the command for the answer and for the building of Jerusalem until Christ the prince there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks; and then the time shall return, and the street shall be built, and the wall, and the times shall be exhausted.

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

"In an attempt to analyze and interpret prophecy correctly, many have employed the supposed necessity of transferring prophecy out of its original Jewish context into a more symbolic and spiritualized fulfillment in the Church. The same has been done with Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks. The rule seems to be that the original literal Jewish context must be rejected if any progress is to be made in prophetic interpretation."

"No interpretation of this prophecy which ignores the Jewish focus should be seriously considered. The nation of Israel was Daniel's concern at this point and the subject of his prayer. In the introduction to the prophecy Gabriel speaks of "your people and your holy city" and the "holy of holies" (qodesh qadashim), which is clearly and always in the Old Testament a reference to Israel's tabernacle or temple. The prophecy throughout employs such terms as "Jerusalem," "the city," "the sacrifice and the oblation," and "the many." The people and the city under discussion could not be more obvious, namely the nation Israel and her capital city, Jerusalem."

(From the article, "Daniel's Seventy Weeks - an Historical and Exegetical Analysis" - Fred Zaspel - 1991)

I concur with Brother Zaspel, and this is the view I take in any discussions regarding the book of Daniel or any of the other prophets.

Thanks. PTL.

//The people and the city under discussion could not be more obvious, namely the nation Israel and her capital city, Jerusalem."//

Does not a past fulfillment meet this requirement?

"The fulfillment of many prophecies of both testaments, depends upon the return of the Jews to their own land. And their return has been established by scripture beyond successful contradiction. And their return is plainly implied in these prophecies which speak of "the temple," "the holy place," "the sanctuary," "the daily sacrifice," etc., in connection with the Second Coming of Christ. Daniel 12:11 contains a prophecy of this kind, and reads thus: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This was spoken to Daniel about 534 years B.C. And in this verse we are informed, that 'the daily sacrifice shall be taken away:" if this taking away is yet future, the Jews must return to their own land, in order to re-establish it.; for the daily sacrifice has not been observed at any time since in the last 1800 years. Now, this taking away of the daily sacrifice NEAR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST (emphasis docs), implies its re-establishment after the present time. The daily sacrifice will be taken away NEAR THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST (emphasis docs)."

(P.S.G. Watson - 1880)

I concur and agree with Watson and take this view in discussions regarding the book of Daniel and the 70 weeks prophecy.

Blessings.

//The people and the city under discussion could not be more obvious, namely the nation Israel and her capital city, Jerusalem."

Does not a past fulfillment meet this requirement?//

No, I don't believe so.

The best that can be said regarding the past is that types and partial fulfillments have occurred while a exhaustive and complete eschatological fulfillment still lies in the future. Daniel's overall context is speaking of events at the "time of the end" (Daniel 8:19; 11:35, 40;12:4,13.) "Time of the end" is a Hebraic phrase speaking of the very last eschatological events that occur at the culmination of this present evil age.

Also, these events end in the resurrection of the dead which occurs at the second advent of Christ. I remain positive that has not occurred yet.

If the abomination of desolation was the statue of Jupiter in the temple in Jerusalem placed there by Antiochus Epiphanes, why did Jesus prophesy about it in the future tense? Was He prophesying backwards?

Nigel-

Compare these two versions of the same event:

"Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matthew 24:15-16

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:20-22

Jesus is talking about the same event in these two verses- the sacking of Jerusalem by Roman armies. This pagan army WAS the abomination Jesus was talking about. Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple during the time of the Maccabees by sacrificing a pig on the altar and the general Titus destroyed the temple and sported the lamp stand through the streets.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/abomination-temple/

Oops. He was speaking to Nigel and not me. So I deleted my reply. Sorry.

David-

Did Jesus come in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Old Testament imagery helps us see that the Olivet Discourse did come true. Jesus likely used His "coming on the clouds” as a figurative image of God’s judgment, just as the prophets did (see Isa. 19). It seems best to see Jesus in the Olivet Discourse predicting His "coming” through the Roman army in 70 a.d. to judge Jerusalem for rejecting Him. This is especially true as Jesus said this would occur in their generation.

And””- Isn’t it rather ridiculous that you are questioning someone’s heart because they don’t agree with your interpretation? Lots of folks don’t agree with your interpretation. When you start questioning "hearts” it smacks of desperate pleading.

Besides you already warned Jade that there would be disagreement on this topic and when someone disagrees you question their heart.

I don't question your heart even though I think you are wrong- why do you question mine?

Note I deleted that post and felt better for doing so. I am the first to admit I don't always say things right. So I'm sorry for any slight on my part.

Yes, judgment fell on Jerusalem in 70 AD but if just that was what Christ was referring to when He answered the question, "What will be the SIGN OF YOUR COMING and the END OF THE AGE?" His coming again will be at the end of the age which is when the dead are resurrected. That is so obviously what Christ was referring to.

When did the Roman armies or Titus exalt themselves above all gods and declare that they were God and that worship should be to them alone (Daniel 11:36; II Thessalonians 2:4)? If Titus and his armies placed a statue of a god in the temple of that day, then it proves they were not saying we and we alone are god and demand that only we be worshipped. If they believed that they would not have placed statue of a god besides themselves in the temple.

Earlier, even Antiochus Epiphanes issued a coin with Zeus on one side and his (Antiochus) inscription on the other side. So even Antiochus didn't believe He was god alone. He was still mindful of Zeus and the other so called gods. If he believed he was the only God why did he place a statue of a god besides himself in the temple of that day? The latter day, "time of the end" Antichrist will exalt himself above all gods and declare Himself to be God alone. The plainness of the language does not need reinterpretation.

More importantly, were the dead resurrected in 70 AD? Christ's coming again has always been associated with the time of the physical resurrection of the dead.

The sign of your coming and the end of the age is plain uncomplicated language. It is as plain as plain can be. It speaks so loudly in its plainness that it doesn't need reinterpreatation so as to connect it with events not even related to the end of the age. To see it in its plain meaning and to make it into something else entirely enters the realm of, "Has God really said?" in my opinion.

I know replacement theology has Preterism has as one of its foundations. So, if you believe Israel has no prophetic significance in the events at the end of the age and it's all in the past, then go with it, I just don't believe it. I hold to the view that Christ left Israel and will return to Israel. That does not in any way mar or disfigure the reality of the one new man in Christ. Anyway, please feel free to comment all you desire to. We can be civil even if I had a lapse and used poor wording.

Todd, you said:

"All can be answered by the real person Antiochus Epiphanes who profaned the temple and placed a statue of Zeus (Jupiter) on the altar- the abomination of desolation."

It can't be both, and it can't be what Antiochus Epiphanes did, because Jesus speaks about it in the future tense.

Nigel- Jesus is talking about 70 ad.

Daniel in that passage is prophesying about what Antiochus did during the time of the Maccabees.

David wrote:

//His coming again will be at the end of the age which is when the dead are resurrected. That is so obviously what Christ was referring to.//

I agree that Jesus’s second coming will immediately precede the resurrection.

The Olivet Discourse does not mention the resurrection

If you are referring to Daniel 12:2, there is good reason to believe that does not reference the final resurrection of all persons. The OT contains examples of figurative resurrection (eg Ezek. 37).

And check out Simeon’s statement when baby Jesus was presented in the temple: "Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2:34-35

That sounds quite a lot like Daniel 12:2 but Simeon is not referencing the final resurrection but rather salvation of those who trust in Messiah and the fall of those who do not.

Daniel 12:2 says "many” shall be raised (just like Simeon’s statement); clearly in the final resurrection all will be raised.

/The Olivet Discourse does not mention the resurrection/

But the Olivet Discourse ends in the second coming of Christ which has always been the blessed hope of the Church. (Matt 24:29-31). This second coming is what Christ was asked about - what will be the sign of your coming. When Christ come the resurrection occurs.

/If you are referring to Daniel 12:2, there is good reason to believe that does not reference the final resurrection of all persons. The OT contains examples of figurative resurrection (eg Ezek. 37)./

What good reason is there? Can you provide any quotes or references as those who hold that it doesn't pertain to the resurrection of all persons? Daniel 12:2 is preceded by Daniel 12:1 which describes a final time of trouble and distress for the nation. So the final tribulation is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection in 12:2.

But again, what good reason is there to believe it does not refer to the resurrection at Christ's coming.

/And check out Simeon’s statement when baby Jesus was presented in the temple: "Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2:34-35

That sounds quite a lot like Daniel 12:2 but Simeon is not referencing the final resurrection but rather salvation of those who trust in Messiah and the fall of those who do not.?/

So how is that relevant? Bearing in mind that the resurrection of the dead was always associated with the coming of the Messiah and the end of the age, what dead do you believe were raised in 70 AD?

/Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event./

Regarding the return of the Jews to the land, at the bottom of this post, I have included some thoughts along with some scriptures that a friend sent me regarding this return. I told him of our discussion and he wanted to help and contribute a little if possible. Also, it is helpful in my opinion to remember that many times, the prophets repeated familiar themes that other prophets had addressed also. For instance, Jeremiah predicted a exile to Babylon that occurred yet he was able to remain in the land and Jerusalem. Ezekiel and Daniel were both carried into captivity and corresponded with Jeremiah while they were in Babylon. And all of them were expanding on themes already prophesied by Isaiah about 150 years before. The prophets painted an overall picture, many times tracking with one another although they lived centuries apart. If the prophecy of the 70 weeks did not mention a latter day return, this return was covered by some of the other prophets and woven into the big picture Daniel was commissioned and inspired to predict. Again, I believe the 70th week is to be fulfilled at the end of this present age. Therefore, a Jewish return to the land, in agreement with the prophets, is mandatory if the end-time scenario is to play out as forecast. I'm also aware you may know all of this. I'm just stating it again.

A Messianic Reset

"Jesus was the first to reveal that His coming would occur in two stages consisting of not one but two advents. "You have heard me say, I am going away and am returning to you" (John 14:28). The disclosure of this previously hidden mystery resulted in a divine reset of staggering proportions in the Messianic understanding of Jesus' disciples. Yet, unforeseen to the community of faith even then was the long interval of time that would transpire between the two comings. Unanticipated also was the almost unimaginable reality that for a majority of the interim between the two appearances, the covenant nation itself would be in exile."

"The return of the exiled nation to the land and its eventual messianic redemption at the end of this evil age was a prominent theme of the prophets. This end-time scenario is impossible without a Jewish presence in the land. Therefore, the latter-day return of a Jewish populace to the region known today as Palestine (formerly Canaan) and the reemergence of the modern state of Israel is one of the most significant prophetic signs to transpire since the resurrection of Christ."

(From "Prophecy and the Footsteps of the Messiah" which I wrote recently)

Here are my friend's thoughts:

(BEGIN)
I believe that the far greater number, very nearly all, of the return passages are post-tribulational, after the great national transforming revelation and repentance at Christ’s return.

However, there are a few passages that speak clearly enough of a "recent” return to the Land that is before the tribulation while the larger nation is yet in unbelief and therefore still vulnerable to covenant judgment, treading down, and even further dispersion (Joel 3:2; Isa 27:12-13; Mt 24:16; Lk 21:24; Rev 11:2; 12:6).

One example of a pretribulational return would be Jer 30:3-7, but it is not clear whether the return is the first return from Babylon or the modern return is in view. As typical of the near and far perspective of much of Hebrew prophecy, It works both ways, but the latter is most likely since the context suggests that this return is rather soon followed by the unequaled tribulation that ends with the salvation of the nation (Jer 30:7 with Dan 12:1; Mt 24:21).

Eze 38:8 is especially clear that the return is before the tribulation and the great day of God that ends in Israel’s eternal salvation (Eze 39:8, 22, 28-29). This becomes especially clear from comparing a couple of other scriptures that demonstrate that this return is after " many generations of desolation” (Isa 61:4), after the Land has been a desolate wasteland of " long continuance” (Eze 38:8).

Nothing in the earlier history of Israel has ever answered to this description except the age long exile that began with the final Roman destruction of 132 A.D. Only since then did the Land lay desolate for "many generation” and "of long continuance”.

Even Jeremiah’s prediction of 70 years did not fulfill this language. That was only one generation. This is many. Therefore, only the modern return in unbelief before the great tribulation answers to the context and language of Isa 61:4 & Eze 38:8.

So Eze 38:8 is decisively pre-tribulational and pre-DOL ((compare Eze 39:8 with Rev 16:12-17). Moreover, Eze 38:12-13 shows that the Land is a prosperous prize of great wealth and beauty when invaded by Gog / the Antichrist (Eze 38:17). This agrees with Joel 2:1-3, which shows that the final foe from north descends on a Land that is compared to Eden, and like a swarm of locust, the armies of the Antichrist turn the "beautiful Land” (Dan 8:9; 11:41) into a "desolate wilderness” (Joel 2:3).

There is also Eze 22:19-21. There we see the Lord gathering His apostate people back to Jerusalem for the final crucible of divine purging and smelting in preparation for the nation’s repentance. This too is a very clear instance of Jewish return or regathering before the tribulation while yet in unbelief.

The only other verse that I can recall right off hand is Zeph 2:1-3. There, the people are described as having recently gathered themselves to the Land BEFORE the tribulation an final stoke of judgment.

Zephaniah 2:1-2

Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

Of course, some commentators see this as only the prophet’s warning to gather together in corporate repentance in order to turn away wrath, but this is a less likely reading. More likely, this is what can be called a prophetic taunt or indictment against the presumption that mere return to the Land is security against the discipline of the covenant. It was no security the first time the Jews returned from Babylon, and repatriation of the Land, if it be yet in unbelief, is no security now.

A full nation of Jews are in the Land when the 7 years begin, but many remain in the nations until the end when the penitent, now Spirit filled survivors all begin their long trek home (Isa 11:11-12, 15-16; 27:12-13; Eze 39:28-29). Other scriptures show that there is flight from the face of the Antichrist into the neighboring wilderness from which also many will return after the tribulation (Isa 16:1-5; 26:20-21; 27:12-13; 35; 42:11-14; Jer 32:2; Eze 20:34-40; Hos 2:14-15, Rev 12:6, 14, etc.).

You can see then how rare and context sensitive these few instances of Jewish return before the tribulation. But what is not rare are the many references where Jewish presence in the Land is assumed. Such a presence, particularly one so fertile, prosperous, and militarily secure, did not exist for the many centuries of desolation. All of this required a return after many generations of desolation and waste.

As to the climactic 70th week prophecy not mentioning Jewish return, why should it? Jewish national presence is completely assumed, since the goal of the 70 7’s was to bring the end of the times of the gentiles with the deliverance of the nation. Daniel need not reiterate what was affirmed throughout all the prophets that final deliverance would include the "full” return of the dispersed exiles with the final destruction of the Antichrist. For any of this to happen, the Jews obviously have to be back in the Land.

Everything depended on the return to the Land, which for centuries seemed distant and remote, with nothing on the immediate horizon to give much hope of this except the bare Word of God. But here we are! After many centuries, we’ve come full circle, the Jewish question and the question of the divine covenant gift of the Land has brought us around to another time when once more, Jerusalem has again become a "cup of trembling for all nations”, pulling all nations, like a swiftly swirling vortex, into the final conflict, the war to end all wars! (END)

I pray some of this helps BranchinVINE. Daniel is a book loaded and chock full of precious revelation. Besides the first eleven chapters of Genesis, it is the most hotly contested book in the Old Testament and not without reason. Someone said, the downfall of the devil is in the details of Daniel. But I will discuss or try and go through any portion of the book of Daniel you may desire to discuss.

Blessings to you good bro.

David it is obvious this topic is extremely important to you- far more so than it is for me.

If you can’t read Daniel 12:2 and see why it may not be referring to the final resurrection of all persons at Jesus’s second coming then I can’t help you.

But I can say that in reference to the mysteries of Dan 12, that Peter believed these referred to the mysteries of salvation by faith in Christ. Daniel asked for clarity but was kept in the dark and even the angel in the vision could not understand.

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look."
1 Peter 1:10-12

Here are several teachings by RC Sproul on the "last days” and Olivet Discourse. I think most folks at least respect him as a student and teacher of the word. Of course there are many respectable Christians and teachers who believe similarly:

https://youtu.be/rUKtA0HLPrI (Destruction of Jerusalem)

https://youtu.be/Db2l1OyjU1s ( This generation)

https://youtu.be/Db2l1OyjU1s (The end of the age)

https://youtu.be/Pb5B5pjacCM (Literal of figurative?)

https://youtu.be/fwOgsg6KJH8 (Understanding the parousia)

https://youtu.be/H8PCrvPLqMo ( a question of time)

https://youtu.be/aDYBQjF93Ko ( the Antichrist)

https://youtu.be/vR12QsI8obs (The beast)