Pope Francis calls for civil union law for same-sex couples, in shift from Vatican stance
"Homosexuals have a right to be a part of the family. They’re children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out, or be made miserable because of it,” Pope Francis said in the film, of his approach to pastoral care.
Hardly surprising.
They’re children of God
Using this terminology "children of God" is dangerous as it is scriptural language towards those who are regenerate or renewed in their Spirit and adopted by the Gospel. Jesus clearly taught some are the children of the devil and some are of the children of God. Not "all" are children of God.
But protestants are children of Rome, the idea of inventing or changing the gospel constantly based on private interpretation. The question has to always go back what did the Apostles believe and what did the early Christians believe (who were taught by the Apostles). We cannot seek to re-interpret the Scriptures based on our current ever-changing world.
"But protestants are children of Rome"
I beg to differ brother. One of the mottoes of the reformation is "sola scriptura". Luther and the reformers rejected extra-biblical traditions, whether they were the pope speaking "ex-cathedra", or oral traditions, or church councils (like the Council Of Trent).
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you." 1 John 2:27
All I need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit to teach me. Other writings may be helpful, but are certainly not authoritative.
A. W. Tozer said evangelical christianity is the faith of the Apostles. I would say Eastern Orthodoxy is much closer to Roman Catholicism.
Hello Drifter,
Far be it from this man to speak for Greg but I feel led to answer that question you have wrought out of the mild consternation that Greg provoked by saying that protestants are children of Rome. I am particularly struck by your raising the point about the Eastern Orthodox Church.
There is a post that Greg made here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=63450&forum=34
If you read that and hold to the notion of the time it was written and the condition it speaks of then you may see why the Eastern Orthodox Church is not Rome and why it is therefore not vulnerable to the same change that protestants are vulnerable to.
There may be many things that outwardly are similar to Rome in the Eastern Churches. But change and endless change to the demands of the world and the seasons is not one of them.
Protestants are denominationally the daughters of Rome. They are the children of Rome and Luther didn't want a schism with Rome - he wanted a reformation of Rome. In the end he got a new church.
I look forward to what Greg says to your point. I was looking at it for the last 24 hours and asking myself the same question.
Ü¡Ü«ÜšÜ
Just to be helpful:
This is the element that makes the separation visible between Rome and the Eastern Churches. In this case the Syrian Eastern Orthodox Church in particular - but Greek and Russian Orthodox too.
Dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. We have already told you that the end of the world is near, the consummation remains. Has not faith withered away among mankind? How many foolish things are seen among youths, how many crimes among prelates, how many lies among priests, how many perjuries among deacons! There are evil deeds among the ministers, adulteries in the aged, wantonness in the youths””in mature women false faces, in virgins dangerous traces! In the midst of all this there are the wars with the Persians, and we see struggles with diverse nations threatening and "kingdom rising against kingdom’’ (Matt. 24:7). When the Roman empire begins to be consumed by the sword, the coming of the Evil One is at hand. It is necessary that the world come to an end at the completion of the Roman empire.
The detail is found in the reference to the wars with the Persians.
Ü¡Ü«ÜšÜ
I know Luther sought to reform the Roman church by bringing them back to biblical truth.
However both the Roman Catholic church and Orthodox believe they are the only true church, they both "venerate" images, they both put their own doctrine on equal footing with scripture (oral tradition for the Orthodox, whatever the pope says for the catholics), they have very similar ceremonies and liturgy.
It was the protestants who evangelized the world, who brought sweeping social reform, who enabled the scientific revolution after the Dark Ages brought on by the Roman Catholics suppressing the Bible and scientific inquiry.
Tell me brother, when you think of the early church, could you imagine the apostle Paul mumbling prayers in Latin and doing elaborate ceremonies, building huge, ornate churches, wearing gaudy vestments and baptizing babies? I think he'd look a lot more like John Wesley or Charles Finney, or someone like that.
I'm sure that if we could go back in time the apostles would look like protestants.
Tell me brother, when you think of the early church, could you imagine the apostle Paul mumbling prayers in Latin and doing elaborate ceremonies, building huge, ornate churches, wearing gaudy vestments and baptizing babies? I think he'd look a lot more like John Wesley or Charles Finney, or someone like that.I'm sure that if we could go back in time the apostles would look like protestants.
brother, I am sharing a reply to your post not to win an argument but to show that we sometimes have not the full picture of church history.
A few thoughts regarding some of your statments above.
- The orthodox church (the prominent church in the first 1500+ years of the church) never had the service in any other language other then the main language of the bible. It was the catholic church only that hid the word of God under latin.
- John Wesley supported infant baptism. And along that same subject so did Martin Luther and almost every other protestant. It was a given in their day.
- The apostles and Jesus Christ wore robes (the wearing of a robe would be shocking enough to the mind of simple dressed evangelicals). Most all protestants wore some sort of clergy robe etc. The losing of this has only been recent and amongst some of the most progressive new groups that have started such as pentecostals etc.
But back to the main point of the thread, may God preserve modern believers who intepret and believe the Scriptures with the mind of God and according to the apostles teachings. Let us not waver with all the new waves of culture. We have 2000 years of faithful Christians behind us, may we not back down to a place of surrender to the spirit of the age.
We are now completely off topic...
I think I understand most of what drifter is saying.
To continue a constructive discussions we would need different threads, about The Orthodox church, The Reformation, Today's church etc.
BeginQuote:
Using this terminology "children of God" is dangerous as it is scriptural language towards those who are regenerate or renewed in their Spirit and adopted by the Gospel. Jesus clearly taught some are the children of the devil and some are of the children of God. Not "all" are children of God.
But protestants are children of Rome, the idea of inventing or changing the gospel constantly based on private interpretation. The question has to always go back what did the Apostles believe and what did the early Christians believe (who were taught by the Apostles). We cannot seek to re-interpret the Scriptures based on our current ever-changing world.
EndQuote:
Then:
BeginQuote:
We are now completely off topic...
I think I understand most of what drifter is saying.
To continue a constructive discussions we would need different threads, about The Orthodox church, The Reformation, Today's church etc.
EndQuote:
First thought:
I believe that what Greg posted to respond to the original OP has in it two very important principles. And his final comment here:
BeginQuote:
But back to the main point of the thread, may God preserve modern believers who intepret and believe the Scriptures with the mind of God and according to the apostles teachings. Let us not waver with all the new waves of culture. We have 2000 years of faithful Christians behind us, may we not back down to a place of surrender to the spirit of the age.
EndQuote:
......draws both threads into visibility. The language of the Eastern Churches which are now called Orthodox churches was Middle Aramaic [Syriac] and Common Greek. As Greg shared - Latin subjugated or else hid the Scriptures. The wisdom I believe is that in our time we can see this distinction in clear visibility both in the East and in the West.
So the lesson is that we must hold onto the truth that we have of the apostolic teachings [New Testament Letters] and by direction their disciples and their disciples also. The issue of homosexuality does not come into focus in the Gospels. It comes into focus in the churches and in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
So for prophetic wisdom let me quote a Scripture:
Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?” Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”
Ü¡Ü«ÜšÜ
Thanks brother Greg, I always appreciate your knowledge of history and your willingness to share things on here.
I did't think there was any fixed topic that couldn't be expounded, the original poster just shared an article.
In the old Israel the issue of homosexual relationship is clearly laid down in Leviticus 18:22.
In the time of the apostles, Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, laid down the issue in the first chapter of Romans, which is now being subjected to a different meaning among the liberals and those who has been given to deception.
Among the arguments is that the old testament bible no longer applies to us.
This is a grave deception and offence to the God of Moses whom our Lord Jesus, the purpose of His whole ministry is to declare the God of the old testament (John 1:10).
This declaration of the Pope can be a big threat to true christians but we have been warned where this world is going to, if we suffer, let us suffer then with the grace of God.
BeginQuote:
This declaration of the Pope can be a big threat to true christians but we have been warned where this world is going to, if we suffer, let us suffer then with the grace of God.
EndQuote:
I tend to disagree with this perception that any claim that endorses homosexuality is a threat to Christians. The reason in part is because this sin, whilst it is an abomination unto the Lord, is a cause of considerable suffering to its adherents. Unless we as Christians find a means to lay hold of our fellow man who is laid down in this sin to an end of deliverance, then their end will be far worse than any suffering we can experience because of the intolerance that is now upon us when we speak about it.
When I was saved many years ago the man who gave me my first bible just two hours after I was saved was Roddam Twiss. I went into his abode just two hours after being saved and without knowing who he was or anything about him - I told him that he was a homosexual. His reply was that he was a passive homosexual - which meant nothing to myself. Yet when I told him that I had just come to salvation in Christ he went straight to his bookshelf and removed a bible which he gave me. He then told me that his father had been Black Rod of Parliament.
You would have thought that in that instance of hearing his sin he would have been shaken and in some way he would have been willing to at least explore his need for God. Yet he was of a privileged family, his father had been 2nd Sea Lord of the Admiralty and became Black Rod of Parliament at the beginning of the 1970's. And yet despite that he took a wrong confidence in authority and privilege his grave condition was far worse than even an act of sodomy.
Like so many men and now a growing number of women, a misuse of authority whilst it may always tend to decency in the giving of bibles and not refusing the parade of the church to falsely present Christ (as the Roman Church does) you would imagine to know that the policeman and the judge are not the authority of God but an instrument of God to punish wrong doing. And this man ought to have known that better than many.
In 1967 he was a teacher in a private school and was found to have sexually abused boys with a co accused and was sent to prison for three years. When he was released his father ordered him to leave the country and so he moved to Boston, Massachusetts where he lived until he came back to the United Kingdom. It was after this return that I met him as I have described.
So when I told him in the power of the Lord that he was a homosexual he ought to have asked how he could escape. Yet he escaped by claiming that his sin was passive. For all that he gave me my first bible. And the reason why this may matter is that I was sexually abused in boarding school (though not by this man) and the Lord in His mercy proved that His grace is boundless. To me it is the very proof that God is our deliverer and His arms are an everlasting strength because the only thing in truth that concerned myself when I was abused was that it was at the hands of the deputy Head of the boarding school I attended. If it had been a mistaken folly of two boys in the flesh then it would have had much less of an effect.
A simple search of the internet will tell you everything you need to know about Roddam Twiss and why we should humble ourselves and seek to find a way to lay hold of such men in the power of God to an end of their sins. So the Pope's words whilst they are at fault - cannot change the purposes of God neither can they harm His servants. One day Roddam Twiss will stand before the throne of Judgement and have to give an account. He will have to explain how it was that he knew the finger of God to bearing witness that he was a homosexual who gave one of His servants His word so as to seem decent and righteous and did not flee from his sin.
As long as men draw breath then let us humble ourselves and not become their judges before the time that they are judged by God.
Ü¡Ü«ÜšÜ
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