Question for the scholars - re prophesies of the Church Age

Can anyone give me some Old Testament references directly speaking of the coming Church Age? I know that there are prophesies about the coming Christ, and the coming Holy Spirit, and eternity, but what about the Church?Diane

Consider these Pauline texts:Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began ... by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Taco

Can anyone give me some Old Testament references directly speaking of the coming Church Age? I know that there are prophesies about the coming Christ, and the coming Holy Spirit, and eternity, but what about the Church?It is an axiom among pretrib dispensationalists that there is no mention of the church 'age' in the OT. It is essential for them to have this axiom in order to justify their view that the clock of Daniel's 70 weeks stopped and will restart at a future time. The dispensationalists regard Daniel's weeks as having suffered an hiatus or to use their usual phrase "the church age is a parenthesis" which is unrecorded in OT prophecy. Their view is that it did not hit the radar of the Old Covenant dispensation.You refer to 'direct prophecies'. An orthodox Jew would see none of our 'direct prophecies' as pertaining to Jesus of Nazareth, so in that sense all prophecy demands interpretation and application. One pretty 'direct' prophecy which comes to mind is Psa. 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. The book of Hebrews certainly seems to apply this passage to the current 'church' age when it quotes it “For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.”(Heb. 2:11-12, KJVS)I am not a pretrib dispensationalist, so they may want to correct my interpretation of their view. :-)

Some general prophecies speaking of the current age can be found in Genesis 22:18, Isaiah 2:1-4/Micah 4:1-8, Isaiah 19:18-25, Daniel 2:44-45, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Joel 2:28-32, Hosea 2:23, Psalm 87. Such are just some prophecies that come to mind off the top of my head about the age we currently live in.

By the way, if anybody attempts to confuse you about OT bible prophecy regarding the Church age, specifically concerning "the mystery" hidden, the Scriptures say exactly what this mystery was that was hidden. This age itself was not a surprise to the prophets, some hidden paranthesis in God's plan, rather, the mystery is plainly this according to Paul:Ephesians 3:4 By refering to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.According to Paul, this is the only thing you will not find prophesied of in the Old Testament. However, that is not to say this age we are living in is not prophesied of. Such is the error of classical dispensationalism thinking. Psalm 110 is another prophecy of this age, specifically, Psalm 110:1. This is a prophecy quoted in the NT to prove the ascension of Christ to heaven being prophesied of. If Christ is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, then logic says He is not currently on earth. Thus, He must have asscended there. Which, would leave us with the current age.

It is an axiom among pretrib dispensationalists that there is no mention of the church 'age' in the OT.Hi Ron,I'm one of those pre-tribbers, but I'm not aware of any such axiom :-) .

Thanks for these references and thoughts. I am not finished meditating on them yet – but have a few thoughts so far:In the Old Testament prophetic writings, the space of time between Christ’s first and second advent seems hazy. Maybe that’s because the prophets saw right through into eternity – not bound by finite time and space. I wonder if their clearest vision regarding the church was of its eternal destiny - heaven – the New Jerusalem – New heaven and earth. After all, prophetic insight is spiritual insight – given in the spirit, by the Spirit.It is obvious that the prophets never envisioned the church as we see it today – but as a spiritual government – reigning within hearts, and as an eternal kingdom. Jesus said, “The kingdom is within you.” It also seems to be a conquering body – defeating the enemy (Satan). I wonder if that refers to salvation – rescuing souls from hell. I don't think it referred to the Crusades - ancient or modern. I fear that the real Church is still "in 'parenthesis'” in the minds of most because they are carnal minded, spiritually blind, and don’t have eternity on their hearts. As a result spiritual realities regarding the church register as a blank in their minds. They produce a lot of interpretations that are bound by finite time and space and make sense to a natural, unspiritual mind – but are not explicitly stated anywhere in Scripture.MYSTERYJews and Gentiles become one through redemption. .. neither Jew nor Greek....Why was it a mystery? To whom was it a mystery? MY CONCERN:Error in interpreting prophesies regarding the Church/Kingdom will cause countless to follow the beast (natural, political, religious ruler) when they think they are following Christ and are part of his Church. In the end, error makes a difference between hell and heaven. Diane

I'm one of those pre-tribbers, but I'm not aware of any such axiomJeremy.Sorry, a generalisation. The early brethren who specialised in the Scofield view of things would often use the creation narrative as their model. They identified the different days with different dispensations, and in particular the fourth day “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.” Gen. 1:14-18,) with the era of the church, saying that in that dispensation God's work was not concerning earthly things but the heavenly creation which they identified with the church. In his pretrib period Philip Mauro was a particular exponent of this view.I think the parenthesis view of Daniel's 70 weeks is pretty well established among pretribbers?

o be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.I am certainly no a "pretribber" but as I understand it this (the above) is the essence of the church that Christ is building. A body of jew and gentile with the middle wall being broken down and both being heirs of the promise. I do not believe that this was prophesied is the OT and hence I don't believe that the church per se was revealed.

as I understand it this (the above) is the essence of the church that Christ is building. A body of jew and gentile with the middle wall being broken down and both being heirs of the promise.Ah, 'the essence'... what is the essence of the church? I know this is highly hyperthetical but would there have been no church if no Gentiles had responded?“...the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Eph. 3:4-6)Is this saying that the 'mystery' is the church or that the mystery is that Gentiles would be part and parcel of the same body? The church which is His body was already in existence in Acts Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. although at this time, as far we know, there were no Gentiles in it.I do believe the Church is a brand new entity and not just the addition of Gentiles to the old Israel. He made, of himself, (literally 'in Himself') one new man“the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,” (Eph. 2:15, YNG) As soon as the Jew was incorporated into the body (I am choosing my words very carefully here) they constituted the 'new man' that He had made 'in Himself'.I think the two into one, is a consequence of the church, rather than its essence.

Ah, 'the essence'... what is the essence of the church? I know this is highly hyperthetical but would there have been no church if no Gentiles had responded?But when was the wall of separation torn down and the two made one; was it at the cross or Cornellious' house?

I do believe the Church is a brand new entitySo where is this brand new entity prophesied in the OT?The Messiah praising God in the midst of his brehtren does not in and of itself prophesy a new entity surely.

I think the parenthesis view of Daniel's 70 weeks is pretty well established among pretribbers?Yes, this is true.

Were not the OT prophets part of that entity, for surely they were led and taught by the Spirit, and understood their need for redemption. Did they not excercise the same faith that is required of us for a Redeemer? So maybe the Church isn't as "brand new" since Pentacost as we would assume. The difference is that Gentiles were added into it, whereas, in the OT, they were only Israelites (mainly)It seems like the visible church, now and past, has been dwelling in the Old Covenant to a large extent. That "church" would not come under the promises, as it does not count as the church, am I correct? I grew up with some dispensational teachings, and, have since abandoned that, as to me, it is a product of the creative, logical human mind. It also seems to color the perception Christians have of themselves (leads to pride, antinomianism, etc). And it erodes the message of the prophets - which I believe is very relevant today.

tacothese are good and astute questions. The difficulty in answering them lies in the fact that we are dealing with both linear time and eternal states; they seldom mix well. We can see eternal covenants and the great sweep of God's purposes but the 'on earth' outworking of these things had a linear path.My answers to these questions (which I have asked myself) is really to do with the whole manner of interpretation of prophecy. I am often accused of holding 'replacement theology' although that is not the label I would have chosen for my position. As I read the OT prophecies I find some of them fulfilled spiritually in the arrival of the Church of Christ. I distinguish between the Church of Jehovah and the Church of Christ. (let the feeding frenzy begin... :-? )Christ's words in Matthew 16 speak of His Church as being future. Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. This is future tense, while Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. would seem to indicate that the Church now existed as people are being added to it. The question then is when did it come into existence. In linear time I would suggest that it could not come into existence until the 'living stone' had been disallowed/ rejected by men but then made 'a chief corner stone'. In other words, in linear time, it came into existence after Calvary and the Resurrection. I would suggest that it could not come into being before Christ's ascension in that otherwise we would have had a physical body and a spiritual body of Christ on earth at the same time.There already was an entity known as the Church before Christ came. The Hebrew word 'qahal' had been translated by 'ekklesia' in the Septuagint. Stephen uses the Greek word 'ekklesia' in to describe this 'entity'; Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: It came into being at Sinai. The word 'ekklesia' is constantly used in the Septuagint; Deut. 4:10; 9:10; 18:16; 23:1-3,8; 31:30; Josh. 8:35; Judg. 20:2; 21:5,8; 1Sam. 17:47; 19:20; 1Kings 8:14,22,55,65; 1Chr. 13:2,4; 28:2,8; 29:1,10,20; 2Chr. 1:3,5; 6:3,12-13; 7:8; 10:3; 20:5,14; 23:3; 28:14; 29:23,28,31-32; 30:2,4,13,17,23-25; Ezra 2:64; 10:18,12,14; Neh. 5:7,13; 7:66; 8:2,17; 13:1; Job 30:28; Psa. 22:22,25; 26:5,12; 35:18; 40:9; 68:12; 89:5; 107:32; 149:1; Prov. 5:14; Lam. 1:10; Joel 2:16; Mic. 2:5 and the specific phrase 'the church of Jehovah' is used in Num 16:3, 20:4, De 23:1, 2,3, 8, 1Chr 28:8, Mic2:5.while the 'Church of Israel' is referred to in Lev 4:13,16:17; De 31:30; Jos 8:35; 1Kings 8:14,22,55; 12:3; 1Chr 13:2; 28:8; 2Chr 6:3,12,13; 24:6The concept then of 'another' Church, my Church, must have been astonishing for his disciples. Were there 'plain predictions' in the OT? Well, were there plain predictions of Jesus of Nazareth? Yes, but they were not plain enough for most to see. I think the Hebrews quotation of Psalm 22 is very significant in the context of Hebrews and the enthroned Christ as High Priest. The writer sees the Ps 22 reference to the 'qahal' or 'ekklesia' as it would have been in the Septuagint as a plain reference to Christ as 'high priest' in the midst of His brethren (us) in the Church. There is plainly a linear path here; “Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.”(Heb. 2:17, ASV) In linear time this could not be until He had 'become a merciful and faithful high priest'.

In linear time I would suggest that it could not come into existence until the 'living stone' had been disallowed/ rejected by men but then made 'a chief corner stone'. In other words, in linear time, it came into existence after Calvary and the Resurrection.This is my point precisly. You were pondering (hypohteticaly) on would there be a church if the gentiles never 'joined'. My point is they were joined at calvary not at cornelious house. This was simply the first manifestation of that joining. This is what I was getting at when I used the word essence. Probably the wrong word in hindsight but I see the joining of jew and gentile in Christ as "One new Man" as being very prominent in my understanding of the church.As Peter said; the OT prophecies do speak to us in this time (and about us) and in that sense they speak of the church. But I do not believe that any OT prophets were looking forward to the "ekklesia which is his body" in the same way they were looking forward to the messiah.EDIT:This is the quote I was alluding to from Peter (1Pe 1:10-12) Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them. To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.