In the church but para church?

I believe the church is going to be doing a whole lot right before all is said and done. God is going to iron out the wrinkles and destroy the false high places in the church.

I've pondered it for a while, but the recent events and discussions resulting from the prophecies about the election has brought it to my mind and thinking again. If someone becomes say, a prophet in the church and they continue to grow etc. and their ministry increases, is it correct in the New Testament sense to pick out a name for their ministry and call it such and such? It might be an evangelist or a teacher or any one of the 5 fold ministries. If they are having success and people are listening, why do they then decide within the confines of a local church to call their ministry,"The Fire OF Elijah Ministries," or whatever they may name it? Why aren't they just a person with say an evangelistic calling who is a member of a local church? Why should people call up and say I want to talk to the head of so and so ministries? Why not call up and ask for Bill or Bob who is a member of your local church body and has a certain ministry? Is this a ministry within the ministry of a local church? Part of a church but separate in ways from the church while claiming to be a part of it. In the church but para church at the same time. Many who have success pack up and leave the local church and start their own thing or ministry. Which is another division. Am I making any sense?

Possible causes for recent prophetic confusion:

1) A somewhat long history of ignoring false prophecies given by individuals and requiring no accountability and letting things and these people just keep on as normal.

2) No filtering process between ministries and prophets and those with a calling. When ministers get words or prophecies, they really don't check with anyone and have their prophecies judged and filtered by others. Instead, they just jump on their ministry sites or Youtube or whatever and give their word.

Do these people have spiritual oversight in their life? Or have they become the heads of their own ministries and that is good enough for them? How much can the authority structure in the local church possibly help straighten this out? It may be a teacher, a prophet, an evangelist or whatever. When they have success why do so may decide to form their own ministry? Why not just remain a member of a local Christian church which is part of the whole and not single out their ministries by titles etc?

Help me here. I could be wrong in what I am presenting. Yet the church is being laughed at right now by many in the church and the world for this last abundance of prophecies and the election. What led to this and how can it be remedied? Are our ministry patterns wrong?

Meanwhile, I pray God's blessings upon the church of His Son. He is going to have His way. But it's time for REALITY and any necessary painful adjustments and change we need to be about. It's just what perhaps are they?

Docs, I hear you.

I’ll hang up and listen. :)

Hi Docs,
Alot in that,in my opinion the Body Structure has to be restored.
Its not biblical or beneficial for a person to be called "Prophet Jack" or "Apostle Martin".A title is a structure after all and by doing this we are creating wrong structure.
We have settled for this for along time now.But we cant blame Jack or Martin for calling themselves by their gifting when we have "Pastor Charlie" and "Pastor Harry" doing the same thing and its perfectly ok.The natural extension of naming a person by his/her ministry is naming the persons ministry by a name.Their are also some practical legal reasons in the modern society with modern laws and regulations why they have set up as a ministry.For instance SI is an internet ministry,double standards and whatnot for us to complain if other ministries are set up on the net.

A Prophesy is a prophesy and cant be filtered.We could have the crazy situation of a Pastor okaying a Prophets words,the pastor of course being the lower gifting.

On adjustments ,who makes these adjustments?God and until he does.....
On election prophesy:We have lumped prophesy ,dreams and visions and intrepretation into the one basket called prophesy but although they are overlapping ,they are not the same.I think we need to understand each individually better,
urs staff

Judged might be a better word for prophecy instead of filtered. If a prophecy is of large importance and can influence many, should it be judged by others perhaps with the same calling before it is given? Or are they just given with the people maybe trusting that their own reputations are good enough.

Evangelists and teachers usually rise from among the ranks of the church but it seems if they are really gifted and successful they depart and start their own "ministry." Why not just stay where they are or in another local church and continue to minister?

I don't pretend to have it all figured out but am thinking of these things lately

Hi Docs,
Another thing is and I dont know the answer but i suspect the number is high,Are their more Christians not involved in a local Church or denomination than are? and why is this?

If the local body are not operating like a body should,as Paul describes then their are consequences and some giftings wont rise in that flawed environment.Throw into the mix the totally unbiblical entity of denominations and you are gauranteed some form of malfunction to varying degrees,
urs staff

I’m intent more on listening to this discussion. However I believe true Eldership has just not been given its proper place within many churches, nor the respect within the body it should have.

I agree billy. Yes.

I agree with most of your points. All the ministries are given to local churches. Anyone who is not connected to a local Church and does these ministries outside the boundaries of the Church is not on the right track.

Let me share my experience. When I was in India, I was part of a fellowship. After connecting with the families in that fellowship, I observed a pattern that most of them have come to the Church through one brother. I then realized that he was the evangelist in the Church. Out of 100 people in the Church, 80 of them came via this brother. But he had no title or ministry outside the Church. Those whom he evangelized, he brought them into the local Church he was part of. He was just an ordinary brother whom you mostly miss in the Church, there was nothing special about him. I also observed other ministries operating in a similar pattern in that fellowship which was a matured local body of Christ. My eyes have seen the real local body of Christ functioning, hence I can easily say that the Biblical pattern explained in the epistles of Paul, is possible and God is still operating in that structure.

In a conversation with a brother in our Church, he mentioned his take on the recent controversies on Ravi Zacharias and his ministry RZIM. His point was if Ravi was part of a local body and submitted to it as an ordinary brother then his fellow brothers would have stopped him when he invested in a SPA. Since he was heading a global ministry run in his own name, he did not have anyone else who could have corrected him at the initial stage itself.

This is the beauty of a local body of Christ. Even though we have authority like elders, each and every brother and sister has to submit to one another as well. Even the elders have a spirit of submission to the body. There are times when they had to learn from submission.

Jesus himself proved that there is great glory in submission. Anyone who is following Jesus will also find this glory in submitting to fellow brothers and sisters in a local body structure.

Yeah
Billy I agree Eldership in the structure is a missing ingredient
urs staff

Hi
On submission their are many times where for instance Philip and Paul were not under any local Church.
The majority of local Churches also are not in proper order or functioning without titles or wrong authority and are denominational.Denominations are not a biblical entity,so we are living in a time of imperfect structure and alot of difficulty because of that.God still works through that imperfection also God doesnt nessarcarily stop working through a person just because they are not attending or under the local Church even if not the ideal situation,
urs staff

Can we assume you are part of a local fellowship staff?

Yes, the two points (Docs) you shared I think are valid. But there is more I think. Because the problem is that they are followed by many and so they get a "big name" for themselves. And they are now becoming more united, so that a "prophetic movement" or "apostalic movement" occurs, in which al the "big names" are gathering and strengthen each other.

For myself, I don't believe in those big ministries. I think they hurting more then they build up. I think that God is more focussed on normal disciples making disciples and sharing the good news of Jesus, and helping other to do the same. If somebody calls himself an evangelist, then I would ask them: are you equiping the (local)church to share the gospel with there unbelieving friends, family and neighbours in accordance to Ephesians 4:11-16? (and I would ask them what the gospel is that they preach and test if it is correct on basis of the scriptures.) If not, they are not an evangelist. And if somebody calls themselve a prophet, I ask them if he shares it in the local body first, let it be tested by the congregation and the word of God? And if he equips the brothers and sisters to do the same. If not... I don't believe he/she is a prophet. Etc.

I think it's not hard to see if we just test it all by scripture itself.

Yes Docs,
Well before the lockdown which has decimated meetings.
The problem with local Churches is that we have 5 local
Churches and thats unscriptural too,so where do you start.
I dont think its the local Churches job description to direct evangelism so in that sense its very much up to the leading of the Holy Spirit to guide the individual Christian or Christians.They just went out and did it in the early Church.
The local Church now is very different to the first Century Church.
Billy Graham had a giant ministry least we forget and we cant complain too much about him and the Lord said to the disciples
" Forbid him not: for there is no man who shall do a mighty work in my name, and be able quickly to speak evil of me"

urs staff

"This is the beauty of a local body of Christ. Even though we have authority like elders, each and every brother and sister has to submit to one another as well. Even the elders have a spirit of submission to the body.”

Certainly Sree the Lord has His Spirit on the church you attend! The small church I have been attending I sought for Eldership. I know we need a plural of elders for the guidance of the body.

It seems many are doing their own things and don’t have time to be Elders. Though I’m certain there are some trying rightly! Then their are the requirements for this position in Christ local church, and being full of the Spirit. I’m still praying our Father will give me Elders of His choosing locally.

If a plural of elders oversee the local body through Christ. Then it seems we gotta start there and move on in the structure of the different giftings, and five fold ministry’s. Above this allowing Christ to take His rightful position as Head of the body of believers as well. Then even the deacons were to be spirit filled. Deacons and elders having different ministries from what light our Lord has shared with me.

God is going to bring His church together. How He is going to bring this about though only He knows in depth. We are in a mess right now Staff. I believe we gotta keep seeking our Lord and let Him put us where He wants us and move on in Christ from there. With inward humility only He can provide us to be the body we’re called to be.

Hope you each have a blessed day.

The problem with local Churches is that we have 5 local
Churches and thats unscriptural too,so where do you start.

No Church is perfect. The important thing is are the Church leaders godly and correctable by God. Are they willing to listen to God? It is pride to expect that we should be part of a perfect Church. Instead, we need to seek fellowship with people who are longing for God even though they are not prefect.

Let me share my experience. I was in a city in the USA where I was working with other brothers to build a local Church from the initial stage. I was part of mature local churches in India and I knew how it works and the scriptural part of it. But I was advised by a Godly man to keep my mouth shut and work in unity with other brothers. Even though I knew certain things will not work, I had to still keep quiet and work with my brothers in what they thought was right. Unity is more important than scriptural correctness. My coworkers at that time did not have much idea about the things that I thought were right about local churches. But I did not try to influence them and waited for God to show them. I know they had ears to listen to God.

Today I no longer live in that city but I know that the local Church there has flourished. God has blessed it with good leaders and God-fearing families. They now have a very good Biblical pattern.

Just like we need to be patient with a baby and wait till it grows into a mature adult. We need to be patient with local Churches as well.

During our initial struggles in that local fellowship, so many men joined us who had very high Bible knowledge. But they were so quick to get offended with certain things in us and left us. They expected the local Church to be perfect and doing everything right. They had their own understanding of how a Church should function and tried to mold us into it. But such men contributed nothing. Some even called us cult after being with us for few months!

Brother Zac Poonen often says that those who stay in local Churches are those who come to the Church with an attitude that they are sinners and need guidance acknowledging their own needs. But those who come searching for a perfect Church because they are fed up with other churches around them will get fed up with our local CHurch as well. Only a broken person can be used by God to build local churches. I have seen it with my own eyes countless times.

I think you have shared some good things Sree. You are getting to the heart of what I am exploring in my own thoughts and scripture.

/Let me share my experience. When I was in India, I was part of a fellowship. After connecting with the families in that fellowship, I observed a pattern that most of them have come to the Church through one brother. I then realized that he was the evangelist in the Church. Out of 100 people in the Church, 80 of them came via this brother. But he had no title or ministry outside the Church. Those whom he evangelized, he brought them into the local church he was part of. He was just an ordinary brother whom you mostly miss in the Church, there was nothing special about him.I also observed other ministries operating in a similar pattern in that fellowship which was a matured local body of Christ. My eyes have seen the real local body of Christ functioning, hence I can easily say that the Biblical pattern explained in the epistles of Paul, is possible and God is still operating in that structure./

Especially,

/Out of 100 people in the Church, 80 of them came via this brother. But he had no title or ministry outside the Church. Those whom he evangelized, he brought them into the local church he was part of. He was just an ordinary brother whom you mostly miss in the Church, there was nothing special about/

I suppose that is what I have been pondering. I like very much the part where you relate how this person brought those he evangelized to his local church, he had no title outside of the church, and he was just an ordinary person. I don't have it all figured out, but the scenario you describe seems to be good enough for me. If this person keeps on evangelizing and is recognized as one who indeed had the ministry of evangelist perhaps, why would he need to move a few blocks down the street say and open up a ministry featuring him and his gifts? Why not just stay where he is at as you have described he has done. This is good and is more appealing to me.

/In a conversation with a brother in our Church, he mentioned his take on the recent controversies on Ravi Zacharias and his ministry RZIM. His point was if Ravi was part of a local body and submitted to it as an ordinary brother then his fellow brothers would have stopped him when he invested in a SPA. Since he was heading a global ministry run in his own name, he did not have anyone else who could have corrected him at the initial stage itself./

I agree.

/This is the beauty of a local body of Christ. Even though we have authority like elders, each and every brother and sister has to submit to one another as well. Even the elders have a spirit of submission to the body. There are times when they had to learn from submission./

I agree again. There is a beauty in it.

Thank you much.

/Yes, the two points (Docs) you shared I think are valid. But there is more I think. Because the problem is that they are followed by many and so they get a "big name" for themselves. And they are now becoming more united, so that a "prophetic movement" or "apostolic movement" occurs, in which al the "big names" are gathering and strengthen each other./

I hear you. I guess what I am wondering is if there is any type of correction or redirection of sorts that can take place at the times when it is needed which would not be always.

Some years ago I attended a meeting of who I guess is known as the top or foremost prophet in the body of Christ today. It was not altogether an unedifying meeting, yet some of the things he said and predicted just didn't register in me. But whom am I? I wonder if these men ever have it pointed out to them that what you just said may not have been of the Lord. I thank the Lord for all the good they have done, yet a person at the top of a big and well known prophetic ministry, or any ministry, who won't allow his words to be judged and will not receive correction is scary to me. Just my opinion.

Thanks for your insight. Very good.

I suppose that is what I have been pondering. I like very much the part where you relate how this person brought those he evangelized to his local church, he had no title outside of the church, and he was just an ordinary person.

Since you are fascinated by that brother, let me tell you more about him. One late night, I and him were travelling to someplace on a public bus in India. We both got into the bus together and I quickly found a place where we both can sit together. He instead of sitting next to me sat next to a person in the Bus who was totally drunk. Everyone in that bus was looking at this brother with suspicion as he sat next to a drunk person even though there were other empty seats. The drunkard was very unstable and blabbering a few things already making others in the bus feel uncomfortable about him. Then I see this brother and the drunkard having a conversation.

Once we got down from the bus, I asked him about his conversation. He told me he asked the drunkard about his family. The drunkard mentioned about his wife and children. He then asked him whether they will approve of his drinking habit. He said they won't but he cannot give up. Then he shared the gospel and told him there is a God who can help him to be a good husband and a good father. All this he shared with him on a short journey.

I felt ashamed of myself as I clearly tried to avoid the drunkard but this brother showed him the love of Christ even at the expense of an uneasy journey.

When we think of great evangelists we think of Billy Grahm and other great ministries. But I believe when we go to heaven we will see such unknown brothers who also did mightier work but without any title.

Amen and amen again Sree.

Sree,

I don't think the insight and wisdom you shared in your No Church is Perfect comments can be refuted.

Blessings.